Posted on 10/15/2011 9:50:41 AM PDT by ReformationFan
You didn’t answer any of the questions I asked.
It is time for unity not separation and unity will not happen when brethren are beating against each other. But no, I get slammed for actually opening my home & letting them in so I could midrash the Scripture with them using only the WORD of YHVH.
But that's ok. As Paul said when he was leaving Athens, this is useless, time to move on.
If the Church doesn’t teach the Truth, Christ is a liar. If He would allow multiple versions of Truth, he’d be an idiot. I don’t believe He is either
There are over 1500 denominations under the umbrella of Christianity “IN The US” and there are over 38,000 globally; all who have differences on Scriptural interpretations & practices. Therefore, I know the problem is not Yah’shua Messiah who never taught against or did anything against His Father's Torah. The problem is man interpreting YHVH’s Scriptures by starting in the back of the book and not the front because they think they are smarter than YHVH. Well, YHVH said I have prophesied “In the beginning - - - The End”.
Indeed, The End.
” it just isn’t there in Gen 15:6 - that is unless you want to pull a mormon trick and look at a stone in a hat.”
I am laughing my fanny off! Good one..hahahahaha
Didn’t want to post this on the thread as it would be too interruptive of the flow there.
OOps...jokes on me...sorry was trying to be discreet and hit the wrong reply..
thanks for posting these quotes, i don’t think many people are aware of these beliefs. how can anybody believe these beliefs are Christian?
patlin - just show me the words in hebrew in Genesis 15 passage and quit dancing around the bushes, it isn't that hard.
Not the point I entered regarding the Hebrew equivalent for 'believe' in reference to. Paul (and James) was quoting Genesis 15:6 in which 'aman is the hebrew for "believed" perfect tense and Jews translated into pisteuo. Until you can get a grasp of that it is futile to try to go further.
You interjected yourself into someone else’s midrash only to belittle someone for not having the same beliefs you do.
Incase you haven't noticed - this is FR - an electronic town square and anyone can comment on any post. I only challenged your hebrew-> greek relationship of words because you clearly posted the incorrect definitions. I would expect one who claims such a deeply associated Judaism to be able to understand the hebrew used.
:)
Looks like he flew da coop!
Good show Godzilla...always great to see good dialogue..and we all learn. Perhaps they’ll come back and learn themselves. Some seem to have trouble when they are being challenged with the truth. They do flee in time, once they see they have lost the aguement.
But you still are not answering the questions asked.
Maybe you can gain some Scriptural discernment from the post I just placed on another thread. I think you will find the answer to your question “Where do you take your concerns?” to be YHVH. Only YHVH can lead one to the truth. We close prayer “in the name of Messiah” as our affirmation that YHVH truly did walk among men of the flesh, but our prayers are always to be directed, directly to HIM only not through any earthly being. If one truly wants the truth, then there is only ONE Being in the universe who can open the door to the truth which resides in ones heart of each & every human being. It all starts with the heart as that is where the Spirit & Word lives within us. YHVH is the only one with the key to our hearts, not Adam(carnal flesh) dressed in religious garments.
The truth has always resided in our hearts waiting patiently for us to ask YHVH to turn the key in the door of our hearts in order for the truth to begin to pour out.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2793635/posts?page=196#196
So when you are instructed to "tell it to the church" you can just ignore that part of Scripture.
Got it. Just make up whatever you want to believe, and ignore the clear words of Scripture that don’t fit your belief system.
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Right – no Church here.
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Right. No Church here either.
It is a lot easier when you just make things up. You have a lot in common with the Mormons!
Did you read that from your own set of gold plates?
Again, that is not what Scripture says.
The TRUTH is in the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, to the end of time.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
No, we are instructed to first take it to the person in the ecclesia who put forth the heresy or commited an act against us. If nothing is done to correct it, we are take it to them in front of the council of the ecclesia. If nothing is still done, we have 2 options, stay in the ecclesia that continues to teach the heresy or remove oneself from the ecclesia as commanded in 2 Corinthians 6 via YHVH's teaching in the Tanakh that the Messianic Jewish Rabbi Paul quoted in his 2nd letter to the ecclesia at Corinth. I chose the later in order to come into Covenant with Messiah however, I do remain friends with the members of the ecclesia & do not condemn or judge them for doing so and I do not participate in their pagan religious traditions & holidays.
2 Cor:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial(Baal)? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”[Lev 26:12; Jer 32:38; Ez 37:27]
17 Therefore
“ Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[Is 52:11; Ez 20:34, 41]
18 “ I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”[2 Sam 7:14]
Unless one comes out of her, YHVH says they are not HIS sons or daughters. It doesn't get any plainer than that.
Right – no Church here
Are you speaking of a religious label or the entire body as a whole?
1 Tim 3:15 so that if I am delayed, you may know how one should behave in the household of God, which is the Messianic Community of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 Great beyond all question is the formerly hidden truth underlying our faith: He was manifested physically and proved righteous spiritually, seen by angels and proclaimed among the nations, trusted throughout the world and raised up in glory to heaven{CJB]
Strongs G1577 ekkleesia (ek-klay-see'-ah) a calling out, a meeting, congregation (synagogue). Which is translated, not transliterated, from Strongs qahal (kaw-hawl) From H6950; assemblage. H6950 qahal (kaw-hawl) A primitive root; to convoke: - assemble (selves) (together), gather (selves) (together)
G5319 phanerooo (fan-er-o'-o) to render apparent; galah (gaw-law) A primitive root; to denude; to reveal
YHVH revealed Himself in the form of a man named Yah'shua, Period. YHVH was & is Messiah. There is no 2nd or 3rd person for salvation, there is & has been only ONE from the beginning and HIS name is YHVH.
It is a lot easier when you just make things up. You have a lot in common with the Mormons
No, actually it is more difficult because I know where my words come from and it is not any earthly religious establishment or their contrived doctrine. Therefore I have to be extra careful with my words. Religious labels are of Adam(carnal flesh), Faith is of YHVH who came in the form of adam("Spirit & Word" breathed man) named Yah'shua who's name means "God Saves".
Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[NKJV]
Romans 8 translated, not transliterated as a quite a bit of the KJV was. Romans 8:4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. 5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 Having one’s mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one’s mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God.[CJB]
May the use of HIS words, that are not taken out of context, be pleasing to YHVH. God Bless
You mean this ecclesia & all its future generations until Messiah returns after the final trump?
Deut 4: 1 “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut 6 The Greatest Commandment
1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 29:14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today (all future generations until Messiah returns)
Christianity is not Messiah's ecclesia however, a multitude of HIS children remain in Christian ecclesias out of blindness. Darn, there's that pesky blind in part thing sticking it's nose in our faces again.
Eph 4:11 Furthermore, he gave some people as emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers. 12 Their task is to equip God's people for the work of service that builds the body of the Messiah, 13 until we all arrive at the unity implied by trusting and knowing the Son of God, at full manhood, at the standard of maturity set by the Messiah's perfection. 14 We will then no longer be infants tossed about by the waves and blown along by every wind of teaching, at the mercy of people clever in devising ways to deceive...17 Therefore I say this - indeed, in union with the Lord I insist on it: do not live any longer as the pagans live, with their sterile ways of thinking. 18 Their intelligence has been shrouded in darkness, and they are estranged from the life of God, because of the ignorance in them, which in turn comes from resisting God's will...21 If you really listened to him and were instructed about him, then you learned that since what is in Yeshua is truth, 22 then, so far as your former way of life is concerned, you must strip off your old nature, because your old nature is thoroughly rotted by its deceptive desires; 23 and you must let your spirits and minds keep being renewed, 24 and clothe yourselves with the new nature created to be godly, which expresses itself in the righteousness and holiness that flow from the truth. 25 Therefore, stripping off falsehood, let everyone speak truth with his neighbor, because we are intimately related to each other as parts of a body.
Ignatius 110 A.D. wrote in his epistle to the Magnesians 9…" If they who were concerned in old things, arrived at a newness of hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living according to the Lord’s day, by which our life sprung from him and by his death (whom certain persons deny)…we have been made his disciples, let us live according to Christianity."
Socrates Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."
"On the venerable Day of the Sun(Sunday) let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].)
"When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality celebrated by all with one accord and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of festivals to follow the customs (the calculation) of the Jews, who had soiled their hand with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded in rejecting their custom, we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter; which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's passion (according to the day of the week).
We ought not therefore to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Savior has shown us another way; our worship following a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week): And consequently In unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren to separate ourselves [Eusebius, Vita ConsL, Lib 11118-20)]
It was not YHVH's children who separated themselves from YHVH, it was Christendom who chose a different path for conveniences sake in order to please pagans & add their body count to its membership. The house of Judah may still be blinded as to YHVH the Messiah who walked among us as a man named Yah'shua, but they are and have always been in covenant.
Romans 11:25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won't imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el(house of Judah), until the Gentile world enters in its fullness
It is not for man to bring the house of Judah out of blindness, that task strictly belongs to Messiah who is YHVH.
May the use of YHVH's words & Christian historians, that are not taken out of context, be pleasing to HIM. God Bless
What I mean is not important. I quote the Word of God from Scripture.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
So what I mean is just what God tells us through Scripture. Adding nothing, confident in Christ’s promise that the Church will always teach the Truth.
Christianity is not Messiah's ecclesia
You keep repeating that but that is not what Scripture says. (And the Rock in Mat 6:18 is Peter - In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, Simon’s new name was Kepha (which means a massive rock). Because of gender in the Greek Language, this was translated into Greek as Petros (John 1:42) and into English as Peter. But those language nuances change nothing. Christ gave Peter the "keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:19) and promised that Peter’s decisions would be binding in heaven.)
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
I’m not sure what you think this means. What we know is that it does not mean that God would not give more revelation to man after Deuteronomy was written. The Bible would then have only five books.
it was Christendom who chose a different path for conveniences sake in order to please pagans & add their body count to its membership
Not convenience. Just following Christ’s command. What part of Christ’s command to “go and make disciples of all nations” is not clear? All nations include a few pagans, even today.
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20
You mention context. You cannot ignore the parts of Scripture with which you disagree. That is what Luther tried to do with the Epistle of James.
Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church. They will arise, endure sometimes for centuries, like Protestantism or Mormonism, but we can be confident in Christ’s promise that the Church will always teach the Truth.
OK – lets just focus on this topic. Your solution does not follow what Scripture says. In Scripture, the Church is the final answer – your solution involves leaving the Church if you disagree with the answer, or if you don’t get an answer. Scripture doesn’t give you that option - Scripture says you basically shun that person who will not listen to the Church. Or, if the Church is not teaching the Truth, it cannot be “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
take it to them in front of the council of the ecclesia – a few more questions:
1. Are there more than one ‘councils’?
2. Where do they exist - can you give me one address?
3. If there are more than one, you could get different answers. If you get more than one answer, how do you know which answer is the Truth?
4. If you don’t know what is the Truth, it cannot be the Church of Scripture, “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
Unless you believe there is a Church that has the Truth, your belief is simply not Scriptural.
Yah’shua told us what Truth is in his prayer for his disciples
John 17:17 Set them apart for holiness by means of the truth — your word is truth
Yah'shua is speaking the only one “word” of YHVH at the time and it is called the Tanakh, Torah & Prophets. If one seeks truth, they must first seek YHVH’s guidance to help them find it in the ONLY word Yah’shua, the disciples & the Apostles had. Since all modern religious doctrines stem from Christendom in some form or another teach that Torah is only for Jews; how can they justify their claim to have the one and only truth?
No, in Scripture YHVH has the final word. I noticed you did not post a passage reference for that statement on church authority
1 Cor 14 Order in Church Meetings
36 Or did the word of God come originally(originate) from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord(Master).
The word of YHVH did not originate from men adorned in religious garments
Scripture says you basically shun that person who will not listen to the Church
I guess you didn't understand what YHVH meant when Paul quoted HIS Words in the 2nd letter to the ecclesia at Corinth
2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial(Baal)? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”[Lev 26:12; Jer 32:38; Ez 37:27]
17 Therefore
“ Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[Is 52:11; Ez 20:34, 41]
18 “ I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”[2 Sam 7:14]
We are to put our faith & trust in YHVH Almighty, not the religious laws & traditions of men that are associated with that of Baal. Period.
Unless you believe there is a Church that has Truth
Hmm, a church that has truth? I know which ones do not.
Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.
Nothing new under the "Son". What was prophesied in old is now revealed to those who TRUST(KNOW) YHVH and ask for HIS guidance that leads to HIS TRUTH.
Have you not looked at the global economy lately? Have you watched all the protests by those who put their trust in man to provide for their every need & whim? Is this what the church teaches? That man is to rely on man? That through govt legislation, stealing is legal & just? Well, since the church abdicated their duty, I guess it is true. The majority of truth is not in them. Yes, they say they know HIM. Yes, they say they believe Messiah came. But where is the trust? Where is the truth defined by YHVH in them?
YHVH's children are individuals. They are not denominations guided by the religious doctrines that came out of the carnal minds of men who write on blank pages because they chose to separated the "Word" from the "Spirit" our of hatred and greed.
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