Posted on 10/15/2011 9:50:41 AM PDT by ReformationFan
A Statement from Truth in Action Ministries, Oct. 14, 2011
"While having the deepest respect for the moral and ethical standards of the Mormon people and their church, we must sadly reject their teachings as false and not Christian." –D. James Kennedy, Ph.D.
Texas pastor Robert Jeffress generated headlines last week when he told reporters that Mormonism is a cult—a belief system at odds with historic Christianity.
Since then he has been accused of bigotry, called a “poster boy for hatred,” and a “moron.”
Despite those harsh charges, Jeffress, who backs Texas governor Rick Perry for the GOP presidential nomination, has made it clear that his view of Mormonism is theologically grounded and not an expression of bigotry. He made it clear that he would be willing to vote for Romney in the general election if he wins the Republican nomination and said he thinks that Romney is a “fine family person.”
Dr. Jeffress, the pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, does, however, stand by his statement that Mormonism is a theological cult—and we stand with him.
(Excerpt) Read more at truthinaction.org ...
The Hebrew equivalent from which the Greek was taken is “shama” shaw-mah’
to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.
whose sister word is aman aw-man’
properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.
Amen = so be it - as you say, I will do without question
One can not properly interpret the writings of 1st century writers without at least some knowledge of the history, customs & idioms from unbiased sources. The Temple Institute is a great source for this information because they are more interested in preserving history based on actual hitorical integrity rather than with religious bias. The Torah brought back from Babylon by the house of Judah when they returned and which was the Torah used to read from in the synagogues from Moses seat was not written in Greek. If it had, the Hebrew/Aramaic language would have been extinct well before Yah'shua was born & would be completely extinct today. But that is not the case now is it? YHVH said HE always has & always will kept a remnant of HIS House who keep HIS pure language in order to preserve HIS WORD. The house of Judah has been very faithful children. Thank YHVH they have and may YHVH continue to Bless & protect them.
Actually that is YOUR flaw. For the three passages you obliquely cited - ALL were to Gentile believers, except possibly James. Those GENTILE believers would not relate to Hebrew or even aramaic but DID relate to the common language of the day -Greek. Further, there is no evidence that Romans or Galations or James were origionally written in Hebrew. So you are stuck Patlin.
Fact of the matter is - when you compare the Greek to the Hebrew for 'believed', you've plainly proved they are two different concepts altogether. Therefore it is a fallacy to try to equate apples to rocks in this manner.
One can not properly interpret the writings of 1st century writers without at least some knowledge of the history, customs & idioms from unbiased sources. . .
. . . Temple Institute . . .
With all due respect - the Temple Institute cannot be considered an unbiased source - since they focus strictly upon Judaism and reject Christianity. Hence there is GREAT religious bias shown. Since we are dealing with the NT - these are writings of Christianity patlin. Every bit of evidence points to them being written in Greek.
The Torah brought back from Babylon by the house of Judah when they returned and which was the Torah used to read from in the synagogues from Moses seat was not written in Greek.
Have that LXX problem patlin. The LXX appears to be the source for the substantial majority of NT quotes of the OT (85-95%). Among the DSS, the LXX included finding key sections of LXX translations of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I'm sure this will set of an large posting railing against the LXX - but then its there present in history and the writings of the Jews.
I see again your reponse is simply to use the thread to premote your belief that all church doctrine is bogus rather than directly address the conversation...and using a common tactic of posting lines upon lines of information so that one has to navigate the maze of your posts to discern just where you’re acutual response is within the rant and your promotions.
I’ve determined not worth further attempting to dialogue with you....perhaps another ay when you might be more open for actual discussion.
I stand corrected...
There was a time when I was not attending church after a relocation move... the Lord brought this scripture front and center for me to understand I needed to get back into the fellowship of the church. So I’m chuckling that in my mind it was Jesus speaking...which in a sense it was certainly that at the time.
I do not know which post you are referring to, but much to your dismay, Romans was not sent to pagan gentiles, it was sent to out of covenant house of Isra;el that had become as gentiles as was prophesied. Or did you miss the fact that there were Jewish synagogues in Rome. At least 10% of the Roman population was Jewish. Ephesians - mostly out of covenant house of Isra’el. The Galatians are still up in the air but the fact remains, those who heard the word were already going to Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath; not pagan churches.
Luke 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44but supposing him to be in the group they went a day’s journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48And when his parents[f] saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day
Paul following the practices & customs of Yah’shua
Acts 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures
when you compare the Greek to the Hebrew for ‘believed’, you've plainly proved they are two different concepts altogether
Of course there is different concepts as with all languages a single word can have several different meanings. That is why it is important to find in the word in the Septuagint, then take it back to its Hebrew origin in order to discern which meaning they were using.
the Temple Institute cannot be considered an unbiased source
And thus the antisemitism born out of pagan Greek christians continues. For you to claim that the house of Judah never preserved at all times a copy of the Tanakh in Hebrew without bias & without respect to YHVH only shows your bias to those YHVH chose to preserve HIS WORD. To say that the Son of the Father did not know & preach His Father's language in all the synagogues HE went into as was His custom a rejection of our Jewish Messiah Yah'shua in and of itself.
And thus the goal of haSatan...to remove, as far as he can, YHVH’s children from their native language in order to promulgate his lies & miracles under the guise of truth.
Zephaniah 3[The Conversion of the Nations] 9 "For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech
YHVH gave HIS Torah in Hebrew, it is the language HE chose for HIS House. We will not be speaking Greek in the millennial kingdom.
LOL, oh that is rich patlin - and completely devoid of facts or historical support. Read Rom 1:6-7 and Chapter 16 - greeting all of the (former) pagans (now Christians).
Now you begin to ramble on skirting the subject at hand - your misuse of 'believe'. I'm surprised you didn't point to Gen 15:6 to support your claim for Hebrew interpretation of belief.
The Hebrew equivalent from which the Greek was taken is “shama” shaw-mah’
This is not the word used in the Genesis passage patlin. The word used is 'aman which you get correct the second time - except since you failed at Gen 15, it shows a degree of shallowness in your arguement. A closer look at what you say the definition is:
properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.
Further shows your inaccuracy or potential dishonesty in your definition. The above from you represent the Qal and Niphal forms of the verb. Unfortunately or deliberately you left off the Hiphil form - which is the perfect tense of 'aman. Since your 'defintion' above includes strongs numbers, perhaps you should look up the strongs and read further. Niphal tense of 'aman is defined as
1) to stand firm, to trust, to be certain, to believe in
a) stand firm
b) trust, believe
You really need to learn how to use your lexicon patlin to avoid such gross mistakes. For a hebrew view of how they translated it into Greek we read in the LXX -
καὶ ἐπίστευσεν Αβραμ τῷ θεῷ
With ἐπίστευσεν being the word used in Romans, Galatians and James - pisteuō and remarkably the defintions between the CORRECT form of 'aman and pisteuō match nicely.
That is why it is important to find in the word in the Septuagint, then take it back to its Hebrew origin in order to discern which meaning they were using.
Well, I've just shown the shallowness of this claim - based primarly on the misrepresentation of the use of 'aman in context of Gen 15 without having to rely upon LXX. The LXX just adds icing to the cake since it was hebrews who did the translation from hebrew into greek to begin with.
And thus the antisemitism born out of pagan Greek christians continues.
LOL, you claimed the Temple institute was an unbiased source - bzzzzt you even proved yourself wrong with your rant. The fact is, after browsing through their website, there are NONE, ZERO, NADA NT passages cited and even Yah'shua is mentioned ZERO, NADA. In fact they don't even recognize Yah'shua as Messiah. Once again, Temple Institute is biased against Christianity.
BTW - wasn't it the priests and leaders of judiasm of the post Yah'shua era that persecuted and killed the early Christians? Hmmmmmmm
For you to claim that the house of Judah never preserved at all times a copy of the Tanakh in Hebrew without bias & without respect to YHVH only shows your bias to those YHVH chose to preserve HIS WORD.
It really goes to show the weakness of an arguement when you have to lie by claiming I've made the statement above. Go ahead, properly link my comment, I'll wait, but then knowing I didn't make the statement you claimed I did it will be a loooooong wait. So do yourself a favor on that point and stop digging yourself deeper into a hole - it is availiable for all to see your statement is false.
one shouldn’t throw stones when one studies in a glass classroom
Deut 5:28 “Then the LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me: ‘I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!
Deut 6 The Greatest Commandment
1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’[a]
4 “Hear(Shema), O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one![b] 5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
One can learn a lot about the mark of the beast from the Torah so one is fooled in to taking it. Also, what part of forever you do not understand or is it that you do not trust that when YHVH said forever he really meant it?
Mt 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. [CJB]
Last I checked we were not living in the millennial kingdom thus not all that must happen has happened.
John 5:45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Thus you are saying that when YHVH had Moses write the word “forever” you do not believe Moses.
VERY GOOD patlin. Now practice reading comprehension that in the GENERAL pattern pisteuō is related to 'aman. Now open that Torah of yours patlin to Genesis 15 as earlier referenced. What hebrew word is use for believe? Dare I say 'aman? Of course it is patlin. Now, just how good are you, are you able to see that the stem is Hiphil, making it a perfect verb who's definition under strongs h539 is correctly as I listed previously - and you INCORRECTLY listed.
If you are unable to cross even this threashold, what are the chances that the other bleats you've been posting like an albatross flapping its wings trying to fly do you have to be correct.
Yep, those facts are a challenge when you don't know what you are talking about, and it is easy to attack rather than present a coherent presentation.
Bawwwaaahahaa, now I have to clean soda off my monitor.
Thus you are saying that when YHVH had Moses write the word “forever” you do not believe Moses.
Stick to picture pages patlin. In your post YOU are doing all the 'saying'. Moses wrote the covenant with Israel and was being repeated here in Deut. I have no problem with 'forever' patlin - it is within the context of the NT teachings of Yeshua and his disciples which he condensed to just two commandments.
But then you have trouble finding the correct definition for believe - so I have a hard time 'believing' this rant of yours as well.
H8085 ש×מע shâma‛ shaw-mah' A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.
LXX related word(s) G4100 pisteuo
The key is taking it back to its original for in context of what the writer was saying and that can not be done by trying to interpret one verse of Scripture while ignoring the entire letter. One who studies accurately & diligently knows to read the chapter before & the chapter after in order to understand the context of what the writer is saying in order that they put the right meaning with the word.
And thus the horns finally come out as they always do. Too bad for haSatan it does not work on me
Like this one
Revelation 20:4 ... and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
Deut 6:8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead
You really don't believe haSatan comes up with original ideas do you? Or is that when YHVH called HIS Tanakh prophesy, declaring from the beginning - the end, you did not believe (trust in) that either.
LOL, digging yourself in even deeper.
The problem is with your pityful attempt is that you are trying to force a word into the torah that isn't present in the verse in question.
Shamah is not found in Gen 15:6. You must be seriously confused as to your hebrew bible there patlin. Please show me where it is in Genesis 15:6.
But then it isn't there is it patlin.
It is encountered 1159 times in the KJV - never is it translated "believe". But it is not found in Gen 15:6 patlin. In fact there are 23 other greek words that are ASSOCIATED with shamah aren't there patlin - more sins of omission?
But you are correct on one point - context drives the interpretation. However, the word must be PRESENT before it can be translated. In the case of shamah - it just isn't there in Gen 15:6 - that is unless you want to pull a mormon trick and look at a stone in a hat.
Oh, so you are saying this is the mark of the beast? I don't think your friends at the Temple Institute would agree with you patlin.
I stand corrected & pray you are not a teacher as your arrogance is not a good virtue for an educator. I always say when I am wrong. It is interesting however that one of arrogance is always right even when they are wrong and often resorts to mockery in order to inflate their already swollen heads.
YHVH selected the Hebrew Abraham for a reason. Hebrew means crossed over. Abraham was an out of Covenant gentile when YHVH chose him & called him out. Why was Abraham's seed selected for the Covenant of the Promise Paul speaks of in Romans? Genesis 26:5; Romans 4:3-13 And thus Scriptural proof that pagan gentiles welcome from the beginning
Same Greek word for all, but that was not the point, the point was that Paul was quoting from the Tanakh. You interjected yourself into someone else’s midrash only to belittle someone for not having the same beliefs you do. Yes, Christendom religious doctrine clearly hasn't moved very far since its inception and I am glad I came out of her.
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