Skip to comments.Protestant Chat [Michael Voris video]
Posted on 12/11/2010 5:24:40 AM PST by mlizzy
Calling all faithful Catholics. Man, are we in a mess. When Protestants start thinking Catholics are just as good as they are, there's a problem.
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
@LordWhorfinX2 Jesus Christ Himself says those who do not eat the Flesh of the Son of Man have no life in them. The Eucharist is only found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Jesus Christ says NOT all those who call Him "Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
It is possible non-Catholics can be saved, but not through their faith. They MIGHT be saved by a special grace of God IF they are invincibly ignorant. Non-Catholics are not normatively saved. Not all roads lead to God.
The Southern Baptists and the Church of Christ don’t have the market cornered in the “We’re right and everybody else is wrong, and BTW, THEY’RE all going to Hell” department.
Michael Voris is a sadly deluded little man.
I am soooooooooooooooo glad he’s one of yours and not one of ours!
The Church has never taught extra ecclesium nulla salus.
Look in the Catechism at the heading between CCC 845 and 846:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
I am soooooooooooooooo glad hes one of yours and not one of ours!Ha! I don't think he'll ever be accused of being lukewarm, though.:)
"All the evil in the world can be attributed to lukewarm Catholics" --Pope St. Pius V.
Isn’t Vortis the guy who says in an earlier video of his that we ought to have a benevolent monarchy ruling us as our form of government instead of our present happy mess? — New (Old) World Order?
Voris' alias is Lord John Whorfin? BWA HAHAHAHA
Michael Voris types commentary via the name, “RealCatholicTV.”
:) Love it!"If there was ever a word that should be excommunicated from religious dialogue, it should be that word, "nice" --Michael Voris.
There is absolutely NO DOUBT about that!
The Church has ALWAYS taught "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" and continues to do so - although this has been explained, elaborated upon, and clarified in the time during and since the Second Vatican Council. The understanding is much more nuanced - and still remains a point of lively theological discussion.
As an amusing side note... I happen to be reading some of the relevant Church documents: Dominus Iesus and (sitting open on my lap) Vatican II's Declaration on Ecumenism.
And where does it say that there is no salvation outside of the Church?
The Church has always taught that salvation is God’s prerogative, not man’s. He can save whomever He finds worthy.
The Church is his vehicle to spread the Word of God to mankind, but he doesn’t need the ride. The Church is here because God chose to establish it.
“although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. There you go. Pope Paul VI has stated it clearly.”
Elements, yes. Salvation, no. The Catechism says OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION. Now, that has to be properly understood, but when you say that the Church doesn’t teach extra ecclesiam nulla salus that i sflat out untrue. It’s right in the Catechism.
“those too may achieve eternal salvation”
“may” is not “will”
“I’m a convert, what’s your excuse?”
I don’t need any - I’m perfectly right on this subject. Here again is what the catechism says: “Outside the Church there is no salvation”
Again, that has to be understood properly, but it is completely wrong for someone to claim that the Church doesn’t teach it when it is right there as the very heading of paragraph 846. This is exactly how the CCC displays it:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338
You should read the document "Dominus Iesus" - it is easily found online. It discusses the theology relevant to this discussion.
To put the whole thing in a nutshell: The Second Person of the Trinity - the Son, the Logos - became incarnate in order to reveal God fully to mankind; Jesus in the course of this time on earth established one Church, to which He promised to give His Spirit to guide and His protection against failure; Because there is only one Logos Who became incarnate and one Spirit, they are working solely through this one Church. Only the Catholic Church maintains all of the marks of this Church founded by Christ (i.e. "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church" as Lumen Gentium 8 explains).
This being the case, other Christian communities are not the Church Christ founded - though they share elements of the Catholic Church and are relevant to the salvation of the Baptized Christians in them. Communities that have maintained a valid Episcopate and valid Eucharist are properly called particular Churches. However, the efficacy of all of these groups is dependent on the grace entrusted to the Catholic Church.
Non-Christian religions also have 'seeds of truth' in them that prepare their adherents for the Gospel, but by virtue of their other beliefs and practices hinder (but do not prevent) the salvation of their adherents. Thus it is beneficial (and indeed necessary) for the Church to evangelize.
No, the idea of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" does not equate to "only card-carrying Catholics can be saved" - but all salvation still comes through the Church, and only through the Church.
“Only the Catholic Church maintains all of the marks of this Church founded by Christ”
This is why I converted, when I realised the argument wasn’t, “X is acceptable”, but whether X or Y has the fullness of Christ.
What I meant is that the Church doesn’t teach that you must be a member of the Catholic church in order to be saved.