LDS don’t get theological respect because they seek and shun mainstream acceptance, prof says

Provo • Defensiveness has left Mormonism in a pickle, according to one of the Utah-based faith’s leading intellectuals.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is respected for its Mormon Tabernacle Choir and pop singing groups, dancers, pro football players and competence in times of disaster.

And, yet, said Terryl Givens, professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond in Virginia, “in return for qualified esteem, the public reserves the right not to take [it] seriously as a belief system.”

In fact, a 2007 survey ranked Mormons — along with Buddhists and Muslims — among the nation’s least-liked faiths.

“Mormons like everyone else,” wrote Robert Putnam and David Campbell in their new book, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, “while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.”

Givens was the keynote speaker Thursday at the Mormon Media Studies Symposium at Brigham Young University. The two-day gathering at the Provo school’s Conference Center continues Friday.

The symposium is examining the way the LDS Church and its members think about, use and create media in their varied forms — from public relations to film.

Givens, a Mormon, traced the faith’s difficulty getting its theology taken seriously through three periods of its history, beginning with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery.

His survey continued through the latter half of the 19th century, when Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage, and he pinpointed the moment the religion began to gain a cultural toehold: when the Tabernacle Choir wowed listeners at the 1893 World’s Fair in Chicago.

Mormons, he said, let detractors frame the issues and, in fact, savored their role as “blessed” victims.

“Mormons were perfectly happy to play by the rules that had been inaugurated by their detractors and opponents,” Givens said. “They have played defense.”

Starting with Smith, he said, the church’s message has been more about claiming compatibility with mainstream Christianity than proclaiming its distinct theology.

“You could almost see a fractured sense in his [Smith’s] writing of the Articles of Faith,” Givens said, responding to a question from the audience of about 300 after his talk. “It’s as if he’s going back and forth.”

“Mormons are still characterized by that kind of schizophrenia,” said Givens, who called the Book of Mormon a “completely untapped resource” that is regarded more as an icon of Smith’s prophetic call than a theological source.

One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims.

“I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year.

“Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink and Mormonism had the lifeboats,” Givens said. Pratt resisted the impulse of most Mormons to head back to the foundering ship. “Where Mormonism will steer its boat in the 21st century is not yet clear.”

Bountiful resident Ann Marie Blodgett, a former blogger about Mitt Romney who is considering blogging again, said Givens is right about one thing.

“On one hand, we want to be accepted and, on the other, we want to be different,” she said. “What I took away is we don’t need to be afraid of who we are.”

From the article: One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims. “I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year. “Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink and Mormonism had the lifeboats,” Givens said. Pratt resisted the impulse of most Mormons to head back to the foundering ship. “Where Mormonism will steer its boat in the 21st century is not yet clear.”

So Givens admires the "pluck" of the brother of Mitt Romney's g-g-grandfather, eh? The one who not only said Christianity was a sinking ship, but who claimed:

"The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations call `Christian,' or in other words, `the great whore that sitteth upon many waters" (Key to the Science of Theology, 1938 ed., pg.106).

Wow! (any other "compliments," oh Lds "apostles"?)

From the article: Givens, a Mormon, traced the faith’s difficulty getting its theology taken seriously through three periods of its history, beginning with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery. His survey continued through the latter half of the 19th century, when Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage...

As for Givens saying that "Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage," keep in mind that it was a direct attack upon the institution of marriage.

It led to the Republicans declaring it would tackle the "twin relics of barbarism" (polygamy & slavery) in 1856. And Mormons indeed attacked monogamy:

One early Mormon, Benjamin F. Johnson, recalled that Joseph Smith taught him that plural marriage was the only means by which prostitution could be eliminated. (B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, p. 16)

So--not from a personal perspective necessarily (within the household) but from a Joseph Smith policy perspective--Johnson's remembrance shows that a true purpose of plurality (not the only one) was in effect to have an "in-house" prostitute. How base is that for 19th LDS to have embraced that vantage point? Hardy cited other LDS who thought that mass polygamy would "eliminate sexual wickedness" and LDS general authority/legislator, William Gibson, who after-the-fact claimed to have voted against the Manifesto putting the brakes on polygamy, called it "the best antidote to sexual sin." (Solemn Covenant, p. 145, citing William Gibson, who was quoted in "Polygamous Issues," DN, March 28, 1896.)

Hardy writes: "The need for prostitution...was seized on by Mormons as evidence that monogamy was manifestly an incorrect system of marriage...From the 1850s until the end of the century, Mormon writers and speakers struck at what they considered their detractors' hypocrisy for criticizing Mormon marriage when, as the First Presidency affirmed in 1886, adultery and prostitution were the consequences of the monogamic arrangement.... (Solemn Covenant, p. 89, citing "An Epistle of the First Presidency..." March 1886, Messages 3:68...Hardy cites in the same footnote about 8 other sources from Lds "apostles" and "prophets" Heber C. Kimball to Brigham Young to John Taylor to George Q. Cannon to apostle Erasmus Snow).

So there ya go! The embracing of polygamy naturally led to an elitist position where polygamists looked down upon, frowned upon, and even openly dismissed or criticized "monogamy!" When you have an LDS "prophet" in 1886 claiming that adultery and prostitution were the consequences of monogamy, that's a major, major problem!!! Hardy devotes a full chapter in his book to how 19th century LDS regarded polygamy as sexually superior--not for erotic or orgy reasons--but for what they regarded was the "opposite"--associating prostitution and the resulting ill-health with monogamy, etc.

Mormons rightfully got behind Prop 8 a few years ago...but they can't now have their cake and eat it, too. They can't conclude that homosexual marriage is a direct attack upon monogamy and the institution of marriage, but not recognize that institutionalizing polygamy doesn't have the same effect.

From the article: “Mormons were perfectly happy to play by the rules that had been inaugurated by their detractors and opponents,” Givens said. “They have played defense.”

Give me a break.

Too many Mormons try to "begin from another position" in their dialogues with people of other faith that doesn't "help" the Mormon's oft "starting point" of "Woe is me, I'm the 'persecuted and oppressed' one."

When, in fact, as Lds open their "trenchcoats" to show you what's underneath, we all see their 180-year history of "naked beliefs" of labeling ALL Christians as...
..."false" believers;
...that ONLY the Mormons constitute the supposed "true & living" church -- implying the rest of us are false & dead.

This is where true Christians of the historic faith need to distinguish between the civil tone (I love conversing with Mormons, because usually their tone is "easy" on the ears)...
...versus the content of what either they say, or their tithing $ goes on to do worldwide, which is, namely to slander the historic Christian church!!!

Hence, this is why Givens has to resort in this article talks about Mormon "schizophrenia" (his word). Indeed, a true "dichotomy" exists. Mormons are trained to be "nice." They will often say to your face, or online, that they NEVER "tear down, belittle, or bash" other beliefs. And that actually might be true of many of them via their vocal chords; but NOT via their wallets and bank accounts!!! Their tithing $ goes to:
Official church mag articles & curricula;
Web site content;
Brochures & pamphlets;
Books
Translations of their "scriptures";
multi-media productions;
...which have ALL labeled Catholics, Protestants, & Orthodox as:
..."the church of Satan" per the Book of Mormon;
...100% creedally abominable -- with nary a single creed that honors God per the Pearl of Great Price;
...a false & dead church per Doctrine & Covenants;
...a 100% "apostate" church per Mormon Doctrine;
...lacking all authority;
..."corrupt" professors -- ALL of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price;
...not worthy of joining -- NONE of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price; etc.

Lds are trained from the get-go, especially their Lds missionaries, to always link the so-called "universal apostasy" with what they call "the restoration." [Note: Everybody except Jesus' apostle, John, who supposedly has NEVER died; along with some "Nephite" disciples...who supposedly also NEVER died...anybody get any text messages from any of these guys???] The "Mormon ground zero" for any interfaith discussion MUST be that they evaluate every Christian denomination through the eyes that we are "apostates."

How does that reality transpire? Well, there can be no "restoration" unless something (the original church) was practically totally lost. The Mormon founder needed to take a scorched-earth approach to Christians, otherwise he -- and his restoration -- was 100% superflous. Either he was unnecessary, or the Christian church was...so Smith chose the Christian church to be! im. He chose the latter. He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it. Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all didn't commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch. [Even all the Lds Bible verses they come up with on the apostasy (1) proves it wasn't to be "universal"; and (2) actually contradict it...verses like Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1]

The mormon church "seeks acceptance" by....
Slandering our God as being "once a mortal"
Slandering our Savior as being "brother to Lucifer"
Sandering the Trinity by< inventing a polytheistic "godhead"
Slandering the Holy Bible by calling it "imperfectly translated"
Substituting Gethsamane as the "Atonement" that was done on the Cross
Slandering the Cross by substuting as the icon for their buildings a statue made of gold

You need to add to this list the slandering of the worldwide Christian church...all Protestants/Catholic/Orthodox.

Here they demand "respect" for their "theology" which is anthropology at work with a great resume' (I think the Mormon god got the God job with a great resume' and interview with the council of gods)...
...yet more irony: Look at how their leaders trash Christianity and Christian churches:

I won't even in this post go into the whole litany...I'll stay specific and cite a few things of what they say about Christian theology:

"Truly the most grievous and evil heresy ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their creedal concept about God and the Godhead" (Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie, BYU Devotional, "Our Relationship with the Lord," p.3 -- cue Elsie]

BTW, at this 1983 BYU devotional, McConkie warned BYU students to NOT seek a personal relationship with Jesus and emphatically claimed that Mormons are not to worship Jesus other than have deep respect and awe for Him.

That was a total turnabout from McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine, written in 1966 and reprinted in 1978...in which he claimed Mormons worshiped Jesus...

You know when their leading theological "apostle" of the era is confused about whether or not to worship Jesus, that this is a cult in deep, deep confusion.

The quote from McConkie wasn't much different than what would-be Democratic Congressman B.H. Roberts said in an earlier generation. [Roberts was a Mormon general authority and one of their leading theologians; before that his third wife AFTER the manifesto saying no more plural wives kept him from being seated in Congress in 1898...even though Mormon voters voted him to go there...grassroots America signed 7 million signatures to 28 banners & gave it Congress saying they didn't want Roberts in D.C...Congress sent Roberts packing, telling him to go back to Utah]

Well, this is what Roberts had to say about Christian theology: "The fact is that orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian." (The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, p. 116)

Makes you wonder what Mitt Romney's and Harry Reid's view of Christian theology is if they would show enough candor to give us their assessment.

“Mormons like everyone else,” wrote Robert Putnam and David Campbell in their new book, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, “while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.”

SURE they do!!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

These 'intellectuals' ain't too SMART! “while almost everyone else dislikes
Mormonism.”

From the article: One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims. “I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year. “Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink..."

Yeah, as this Mormon admires the "pluck" of this early Lds "apostle" (Parley P. Pratt), writing a biography about him...how much will Givens focus on...
...Pratt's dozen wives or so?
...and how one of those pick-up wives was a woman who was never divorced (separated) whom he met as a missionary in the South?
...the whole notoriousness of it was that it led to a jealous husband killing Parley P. Pratt [read about it in a book by Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven, a very interesting read]

Oh...and who did Parley Pratt say men and angels are...??? Why he said, they are of the same "race" and same "species" as all the gods!

Hmmm...I can just imagine Lucifer loving it when an "apostle" on earth puts angels in the same camp as "gods" plural.

Anyway, here's Parley P. Pratt's quote:
"Gods, angels, and men are all of
one species,
one race,
one great family,
widely diffused among the planetary systems as colonies, kingdoms, nations, etc.
Source: The Key to the Science of Theology, 1978, p. 21

Hmmm...I wonder if that quote will make Givens' bio of Pratt? Perhaps Givens can then provide more detail about Mormon "theology" that essentially says the Mormon man-gods & man-angels bounce around the universe and thereby arrive on planet earth as essentially aliens.

If you read the Lds church-owned newspaper, the Deseret News, they've been featuring ads this past week on Lds general authorities such as Parley Pratt's brother, Orson Pratt, and B.H. Roberts. The same publishing house has a theological book by Lds "apostle" John Widtsoe originally published in 1915 called Rational Theology.

Widtsoe in that book made the same slandering claim pointed out by Greyfoxx39 in her post...a slander of God that reduced him to be of slime and then mortal origins:

"God and man are of the same race..." (Widtsoe, p. 61)

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.