Posted on 04/23/2010 9:33:26 AM PDT by Colofornian
the Mormon mind is typically programed not to receive contrary arguments, then when evidence that Mormonism produced bad fruit is provided, then Mormons provide a unrealistic and unreasonable means of understanding such evidence.
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Were you ever LDS? You have a perfect bead on their mindset. That is exactly what happens.
No, but a former Catholic, and one that God has been taught a thing or two about human nature (and has more to learn) in conflict with Christ - beginning with my own. And the devil and the flesh will do anything to avoid real submission to the Biblical Lord Jesus, even substituting a false Christ, or effectively placing another authority above the Scriptures. And false teachers are a test, which reveal what we really want.
John 8: 7
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
That maybe your understanding of history but it is not mine.
Are you denying that smith ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor
Speaking of Brigham Young. I found these words speaking across the years from the “profit.” Good grief.....
Some of the Elders seem to be tripped up in a moment, if the wicked can find any fault with the members of this Church; but bless your souls, I would not yet have this people faultless, for the day of separation has not yet arrived. I have many a time, in this stand, dared the world to produce as mean devils as we can; we can beat them at anything. We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world, the cunningest and most adroit thieves, and any other shade of character that you can mention. We can pick out Elders in Israel right here who can beat the world at gambling, who can handle the cards, cut and shuffle them with the smartest rogue on the face of God’s foot-stool. I can produce Elders here who can shave their smartest shavers, and take their money from them. We can beat the world at any game. We can beat them, because we have men here that live in the light of the Lord, that have the Holy Priesthood, and hold the keys of the kingdom of God. But you may go through all the sectarian world, and you cannot find a man capable of opening the door of the kingdom of God to admit others in. We can do that. We can pray the best, preach the best, and sing the best. We are the best looking and finest set of people on the face of the earth, and they may begin any game they please, and we are on hand, and can beat them at anything they have a mind to begin. They may make sharp their two-edged swords, and I will turn out the Elders of Israel with greased feathers, and whip them to death. We are not to be beat. We expect to be a stumbling block to the whole world, and a rock of offense to them.”
Author: Brigham Young
Source: Journal Of Discourses
Volume: 4
Page: 77
So, here Mormons trip up so many. (And then they get upset when it's pointed out by some?)
So here, Brigham said Mormons would meant to be offensive. (And then they get upset when we point out where they are?)
And lest any accuse you of taking it out of context, as if this were only referring to the past life of such men, Young is instead affirming that such “goats” existed in Mormonism, but that, unlike so many Mormons today, they were not to put their faith in men, but where to follow Smith even if he were a vial man, due to the perceived correctness of his doctrine.
“...here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor’s wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith.” (p. 78)
While goats and sheep do exist in all churches, for a restored church to have a doctrine that requires obedience to its founder (thru whom it was taught one enters exaltation) even if he is an impenitent vile practicing sinner is in stark contrast to the Bible. (Heb. 7:26; 2Cor. 60:1-10)
Meanwhile the premise that the gospel and teaching of Smith itself compels belief reveals Young’s ignorance of the Bible, and or an openness to fall under the spell of an orator who radically “wrests” the Scriptures while adding extensive, unsubstantiated fantastic tales to it. And of such were are warned, as Smith and company are indeed in the Bible:
(Acts 20:30) “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
(2 Cor 11:13-15) “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. {14} And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. {15} Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (cf. 2Cor. 11:4)
I been through this many times and these folks lore.
There will be many version but the bottem line is the Nauvoo Expositor violated the city ordinance and therefore was a public Nuisance.
The ordinance was passed by JS and his cronies on the city council before a single issue was printed. How could they possibly know it would be a public nuisance Resty?
He had it destroyed because he (JS) was going to get a lot of negative press and he couldn’t stand for that.
IF the church was true, what harm would there be? Prove the allegations false and move on, right? Oh no, it couldn’t be allowed to print. Because they were going to expose JS and his minions for the charlatans that they were.
JS was the public nuisance, not the Expositor.
Copied from the BYU website:
After these men were excommunicated from the Church in April 1844, they purchased a press and published a paper entitled the Nauvoo Expositor, the only issue appearing June 7. This first and last edition of the paper declared that Joseph Smith had become a tyrant, ruling Nauvoo contrary to American principles of separation of church and state; that he had introduced into the Church doctrine and practices which were contrary to the original teachings of the Church, particularly that secretly he was practicing plural marriage which they termed "whoredoms and abominations." They announced their intention to seek the repeal of the Nauvoo Charter so that Nauvoo might become a city governed by American standards of democracy.
The Expositor appeared on Friday afternoon, and the following morning and the Monday thereafter the city council met to consider its threat to the peace and security of the city. With the powers granted by the city charter, they declared the newspaper a nuisance, as they felt its declarations threatened the security of the city. They authorized the mayor (Joseph Smith) to see that the nuisance was abated. The Prophet instructed the city marshal to abate the nuisance which he and his men accomplished by breaking into the printing shop, throwing the press into street where it was smashed with a sledge hammer, dumping the type into the street, and burning the undistributed copies of the newspaper. Such an extralegal method of abating a newspaper was not without precedent in Illinois (though not in keeping with long established practices concerning abatement of a public press), but it was viewed as a violation to the federal Constitution which forbids destruction of property without due process of law. The city council had only the authority to abate the nuisance by suspending further publication of the paper pending a court hearing which would determine whether it was a public nuisance.
The proprietor of the paper went to Carthage and swore out a warrant for the 18 members of the city council, charging that they had violated the federal Constitution by destroying property with the resultant implication of "suppression of the freedom of the press." In response to the charge 15 members of the Nauvoo city council appeared before the justice of the peace in Carthage on Tuesday, June 25, and were bound over to the next term of the circuit court on bail of $500 each. Jointly they posted $7500 in bonds and some of them returned to Nauvoo that afternoon. Joseph and Hyrum, however, remained in Carthage to have an interview with Governor Ford. While awaiting audience with him, they were arrested on charges of treason and rioting for having used some of the Nauvoo Legion to assist the town marshal in the destruction of Expositor equipment. For this charge they were committed to the Carthage jail that afternoon.
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This simply provide another example of Smith's unScriptural ethos, as in addition to his theology and Christology, N.T. ecclesiology does not sanction the church ruling over those without, (1Cor. 5:12,13) nor the use of carnal means to fight its theological battles. (Jn. 18:36; 2Cor. 10:3,4) Instead, the N.T. is only constituted to use manifest spiritual power in this realm. (2Cor. 6:1-10; Eph. 6:12) The church is also to obey the government, (Rm. 13:1-7; 1Pet. 2:13,14) except in instances where such would require disobedience to the Scriptures, (Acts 5:29) which Smith already was manifestly guilty of theologically, and here he acts in defiance of the constitution of the state of Illinois, which provided Nauvoo its Charter: Among the rights enacted in the 1818 Constitution of Illinois were a prohibition against ex post facto laws[6] and a provision for the freedom of the press.[7] It is clear that the city of Nauvoo's actions against the Expositor violated the Illinois constitution's freedom-of-press provision. This provision read as follows: "22. The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty. "23. In prosecutions for the publication of papers investigating the official conduct of officers, or of men acting in a public capacity, or where the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence. And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right of determining both the law and the fact, under the direction of the court as in other cases." (Art. VIII, cl. 22–23). At best, the owners of the press could have sued for damages, but the destruction of the printing press itself was outside of the council's legal authority. Copy of the Nauvoo Expositor" http://solomonspalding.com/docs/exposit1.htm |
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The below contains excepts from "The Changing World of Mormonism" (http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech17.htm#Destruction%20of%20Expositor: The Nauvoo Expositor, spoken of by Kenneth Godfrey, was to be printed in Nauvoo by a number of people who opposed Joseph Smith's political ambitions and the practice of polygamy. Mormon writer John J. Stewart summarized the problem: "They attempted to set up their own church with William Law as President. They bought a press and published a newspaper entitled the Nauvoo Expositor,... Joseph Smith as mayor ordered the Expositor press destroyed" (Brigham Young and His Wives, p. 34). Mormon writers often refer to the Nauvoo Expositor as a scandalous and vile publication, but in reality it advocated high morals and obedience to the law. This newspaper was strongly opposed to Joseph Smith's "political schemes." The thing that really disturbed the Mormon leaders, however, was that the Nauvoo Expositor exposed Joseph Smith's secret teaching on polygamy. The following is recorded in Joseph Smith's history under the date of June 10, 1844: "The Council passed an ordinance declaring the Nauvoo Expositor a nuisance, and also issued an order to me to abate the said nuisance. I immediately ordered the Marshal to destroy it without delay.... About 8 p.m., the Marshal returned and reported that he had removed the press, type, printed paper, and fixtures into the street, and destroyed them" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 432). Moreover, in stark contrast to the true apostles, Smith was known for relying upon the arm of the flesh: Benjamin F. Johnson recalled how Joseph Smith sometimes lost his temper and resorted to physical violence, a tendency which is much attested to. "...he would allow no arrogance or undue liberties. Criticisms, even by his associates, were rarely acceptable. Contradictions would arouse in him the lion at once. By no one of his fellows would he be superceded. In the early days at Kirtland, and elsewhere, one or another of his associates were more than once, for their impudence, helped from the congregation by his foot.... He soundly thrashed his brother William... (Letter by Benjamin F. Johnson, 1903, as printed in Testimony of Joseph Smith's Best Friend, pp. 4-5). "The crowning provision of the charter gave the city its own little army, the famous Nauvoo Legion.... The Legion was therefore independent of and not subject to the military laws of Illinois" (Nauvoo: Kingdom On The Mississippi, p. 100). "... Colonel," "Captain," or "General" came to replace "Brother," "Elder," or "President" in the address of the Saints. Military trappings were for them a particular symbol of status, prestige, and reassurance.... The record clearly reveals that Lieutenant General (he preferred the full title) Smith set great store by his military role.... As the city grew, so did the Legion, exciting apprehension among gentiles in the vicinity concerning the nature and intent of the Mormon kingdom (Ibid., pp. 112-13). Joseph Smith seems to have desired to lead a large army, for he prepared a "Petition to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, dated 26th March, asking the privilege of raising 100,000 men to extend protection to persons wishing to settle Oregon and other portions of the territory of the United States, and extend protection to the people in Texas" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 282) Smith Ordained King Toward the end of his life Joseph Smith seems to have become obsessed with a desire for power and fame. He set up a secret "Council of Fifty" and had himself ordained to be a king. In 1853 William Marks, who had been a member of the Council of Fifty, revealed: "I was also witness of the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house of Israel forever; which I could not conceive to be in accordance with the laws of the church, but I did not oppose this move, thinking it none of my business" (Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, St. Louis, July, 1853, p. 53). The fact that Joseph Smith would allow himself to be crowned king shows that he was driven by the idea of gaining power. It is very possible that Smith seriously believed that he would become president and that he would rule as king over the people of the United States. The attempt by Joseph Smith to become president [1844] seems to have been a treasonous plot to bring the United States Government under the rule of the priesthood. Klaus J. Hansen observed: "But what if, through a bold stroke, he could capture the United States for the Kingdom? The Council of Fifty thought there might be a chance and nominated the Mormon prophet for the Presidency of the United States" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, p. 67). I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I... (History of the Church; vol. 6, pp. 408-9). Finally, having murdered the Scriptural doctrine of Christ and its apostles, Smith further differentiated himself from them in his death, which he incited, having pulled "the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3). Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. While possessing natural abilities and talents, his personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. His strong egotism and drive for power, together with his deceptive practices led ultimately to his destruction. |
Amen, brother.
See my tagline for why I asked.
Its a you're more guilty than I.
As opposed to yours? I couldn't agree with you more. :-)
we can beat them at anything.
We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world,
the cunningest and most adroit thieves,
and any other shade of character that you can mention.
We can pick out Elders in Israel right here who can beat the world at gambling,
who can handle the cards, cut and shuffle them with the smartest rogue on the face of God’s foot-stool.
I can produce Elders here who can shave their smartest shavers, and take their money from them. We can beat the world at any game.
Internet service? $20/month...
Freep donations? $30/month...
Showing the world quotes like THIS from Mormon leaders?
PRICELESS....
This the official BYU website
The Destruction of the “Nauvoo Expositor”—Proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council and Mayor.
http://byustudies2.byu.edu/hc/6/22.html
Perpetuating a lie - smith made that declaration after the fact - in fact mormon apostle Dallin Oaks in the Utah Law Review, Summer 1965, pages 890-891, wrote:
“In view of the law discussed above, particularly the statement in Blackstone, the combination of these three considerations seems to have been sufficient to give the Nauvoo City Council considerable basis in the law of their day for their action in characterizing the published issues of the Nauvoo Expositor as a nuisance an in summarily abating them by destruction.
“The characterization of the printing press as a nuisance, and its subsequent destruction, is another matter. The common law authorities on nuisance abatement generally, and especially those on summary abatement, were emphatic in declaring that abatement must be limited by the necessities of the case, and that no wanton or unnecessary destruction of property could be permitted. A party guilty of excess was liable in damages for trespass to the party injured…. there was no legal justification in 1844 for the destruction of the Expositor press as a nuisance. Its libelous, provocative, and perhaps obscene output may well have been a public and a private nuisance, but the evil article was not the press itself but the way in which it was being used. Consequently, those who caused or accomplished its destruction were liable for money damages in an action of trespass.”
So there you go resty, from the mouth of one of your own apostles - the act in its ENTIRETY was ILLEGAL.
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