Posted on 11/21/2009 4:02:44 PM PST by NYer
The love of Christ radiates through you...
That was sarcasm, in case you didn’t know.
I guess no Communion for you tomorrow, unless you get to confession tonight? After all, tearing down others is not a very Christian act, and Catechism 1849 calls you out on it.
So you can ask for forgiveness from the one you have attacked without reason, or you can go see your priest next week, or you can forgo Communion...
You wrote:
“It goes back to my other statement. Once the reformation took hold an equally corrupt anti-Catholic movement took form and it was just as bad as the one it was fighting.”
Your statement contains two errors:
1) You are making the mistake of believing the common meme - an derroneous one - that the Catholic Church was oh so corrupt. Was there corruption? Yes. Where you find people you find corruption. It was not as corrupt as anti-Catholics like to imagine.
“From a historical point of view, the idea that the medieval church was corrupt is based on a couple of methodological fallacies, such as disrespect for the peculiarities of medieval religion, arbitrary use of historical evidence, and ignorance of the situation in the medieval church. To represent “the medieval Church” as a corrupt institution lumps one thousand years of Church history together with a complete disregard for any form of historical development, and also applies the label “medieval” somewhat arbitrarily.” http://www.the-orb.net/non_spec/missteps/ch11.html
2) The Catholic Church at least preached the truth. Protestants did not. It is better to have a Church - even one rife with corruption (if that were true) - then to have one that simply teaches error as if it were truth.
“This only proves that neither side had Yeshua as their guide, it was all about power and politics.”
Nonsense. You’re making another error. You’re conflating personal transgressions of people in the Church with the Church herself.
“So ask yourself. Why are priests celebate? They weren’t always?”
Yeah, actually some of them ALWAYS were - just like Jesus and St. Paul.
“Why the huge push to make Mary the co-redemptrix?”
There is no huge push. How many articles do you ever see about it here, for instance? A few a year?
“Please don’t tell me that is dead or over hyped.”
It’s overhyped. As I said, how often do you even see anything about it here where we have articles every day?
“What about medjordge? (sp) countless apparitions, it’s like voodoo lite.”
So you say. Others say differently. I don’t worry about recent apparitions because they don’t have to be believed by anyone and have nothing to do with me.
“There are many things that the Catholic church does very very well and I applaud it, there are many things they do miserably.”
No. Individuals fail. Not the Church.
“I just refute and refuse with every fiber in my Holy Ghost indwelt Spirit to ever acknowledge that the Catholic Church is Truth....NO SIR”
I understand. Your heart is hardened. I get it. That’s not my problem. You might want to ask yourself, however, “If I am making all of these errors about history and theology, am I really in a position to know what I’m talking about?” The answer seems obvious to me.
“Truth is Jesus the Christ.”
I know.
“again, God Bless. Let’s celebrate in heaven.”
I hope to be there. I am not assuming everyone posting in this thread will be.
You wrote:
“Prayers to Mary, or even prayers from Mary won’t help; Jesus is the only way. He said it, not me.”
Jesus did say He was the way. What He didn’t say is that prayers from a holy person were of no worth. The Bible, in fact, says the exact opposite. Prayers from Mary are a good thing.
Good thing I didn't do that.
We’re being besieged by jihadists on one side and Maoists on the other and some of you want to perpetuate an internecine war amongst believers. What motivates you is beyond me.
You violate both the FR rule against mindreading and the 8th Commandment as seen in Exodus 20:16.
So, defense of the Catholic Church against lies...that's beyond you?
Jesus said that you cannot buy your way into Heaven, that you cannot work your way into Heaven, that only your relationship with Christ - asking Him to be your Savior - will save you. Nothing else.
Sorry, those are the rules that Jesus laid down. They trump anything from anyone - or thing - else.
Brother, you have a real problem with anger and attacks. You may not think so, but we're called in the Bible to hold each other accountable. Personal attacks aren't Scriptural or Biblical. Your statement was meant to be derogatory and defamatory.
Feel free to disagree, it says more about your faith than you can imagine...
You wrote:
“Your own Catechism says you do not even need to know the words of Christ to be saved;”
No, actually it doesn’t say that - if you’re refering to the invincibly ignorant.
“...why should you consider him “led astray”, or wait for him to “come back”? According to your own infallible teachings (the Catechism), Christ and His words are not needed for salvation. Thus neither is the Church.”
Okay, post the Catechism section that says that. See, I know the CCC well enough to know this is what it actually says: “those who through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - THOSE TOO MAY ACHIEVE ETERNAL SALVATION”.
Notice the CCC says people who are INVINCIBLY IGNORANT may, THAT’S MAY, still be saved if they seek God with a sincere heart and obey His commands. The chances of that happening are slim, but we can’t rule it out because God is merciful. I guess you believe everyone who isn’t a Christian of a certain stripe will burn in hell forever (and that would include all babies who die since they can’t believe), right?
OK, if I offended you, I apologize, and I will now ignore you as well, since you choose to apply rules to others that you willingly ignore...
You wrote:
“We’re being besieged by jihadists on one side and Maoists on the other and some of you want to perpetuate an internecine war amongst believers. What motivates you is beyond me.”
What motivates me is TRUTH. Christ is the truth. I see no reaosn to pretend otherwise. We are beseiged by jihadists only because Protestantism was successful at dividing Christendom. We are beseiged by Maoists because of the materialist philosophy made possible by Calvinism.
Protestants are my separated brethren, but I don’t doubt for a second that Protestantism has landed us where we are in a post-Christian world.
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."
So those who do not know Christ, and do not know the Scriptures, but follow their conscience, are saved. Kind or runs counter to the Words of Jesus, doesn't it?
You wrote:
“Jesus said that you cannot buy your way into Heaven, that you cannot work your way into Heaven, that only your relationship with Christ - asking Him to be your Savior - will save you. Nothing else.”
I agree entirely. Yet I still pray for people and I hope they pray for me. Prayer works. God gives grace to those He wills. When people, sincere, good Christians, pray for a person, God often gives grace in return as it is needed. The saints are the greatest prayer warriors of God.
“Sorry, those are the rules that Jesus laid down. They trump anything from anyone - or thing - else.”
I am not contradicting Christ in anyway. Nor will you succeed in showing that I have.
You wrote:
“So those who do not know Christ, and do not know the Scriptures, but follow their conscience, are saved.”
No. That’s not what it says. You’re leaving out several things. The more important thing you’re leaving out is “may”.
“Kind or runs counter to the Words of Jesus, doesn’t it?”
No. Christ is not cruel. Again, do you believe children go to hell? How about aborted babies? They don’t believe in Christ, right? So, accrording to you they must AUTOMATICALLY go to hell, right?
Yet all those prayers mean nothing, if the person does not accept Christ themselves. Intercessory prayer cannot save a person.
“There was no other church. The church existed before the Bible.”
There still is just one Church.
More than 2/3 of the Bible existed before the Church existed.
best,
ampu
Exodus 20:16
You wrote:
“Yet all those prayers mean nothing, if the person does not accept Christ themselves. Intercessory prayer cannot save a person.”
Christ grace saves. And God can give it to someone or have it act in someone’s life in answer to the prayers of others.
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