Minneapolis church votes to leave ELCA over gay clergy

Minnesota Public Radio ^ | 9/30/9 | Cathy Mayfield & Jessica Mador, Minnesota Public Radio

[SmithL]

St. Paul, Minn. — Members of St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Minneapolis decided to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America after a 96 percent vote by members on Sunday.

The decision to leave came after the ELCA Church-wide Assembly vote on Aug. 21 in Minneapolis, that allowed gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy.

Before the ECLA's decision, gay clergy were allowed to be ministers only if they were celibate. Some church members object to the new policy, saying it goes against Scripture.

The St. Paul's congregation's council set a policy in October 1990 that stated if the ELCA ever moved to allow such ordinations, the congregation would immediately begin the process to leave.

"We feel quite affirmed by the hundreds of congregations who are contemplating the same move," St. Paul's Senior Pastor, Rev. Roland J. Wells, Jr. said in a news release.

According to Wells, there are many pastors and members who are withholding funds from the national church, and are working to establish a new denomination called Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ.

[SmithL]

The exodus continues.

[icwhatudo]

If these churches were leaving because a Christian denomination was too conservative, it would be front page national news. All the talking heads would be pontificating about it. “Yet another church departs XYZ due to conservative stance” would be the headlines.

[fwdude]

"We feel quite affirmed by the hundreds of congregations who are contemplating the same move," St. Paul's Senior Pastor, Rev. Roland J. Wells, Jr. said in a news release.

Wow! A MALE ECLA pastor?! What's this world coming to?

[Diana in Wisconsin]

Good for them! And if and when the church I’m considering joining does the same, I will join. But not a minute before!

Lutheran Leadership? You are FORCING me to convert to Catholicism. You remember...the religion that Martin Luther so strongly ‘suggested’ that we leave? That big note he left on your door? Remember? Hellooooo?

Happy now? Jerks.

[EGPWS]

Read my tag and give me a pat on the back.

[1010RD]

Is the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church still conservative?

[Marie2]

Yes. Notably pro-life.

[EGPWS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh_6Dia1Rjo&feature=related

[BillyBoy]

>> Lutheran Leadership? You are FORCING me to convert to Catholicism. You remember...the religion that Martin Luther so strongly ‘suggested’ that we leave? That big note he left on your door? Remember? Hellooooo? <<

Martin Luther's intention was never to leave the Catholic church. His intent was to reform the Catholic church from within. This was halted when Luther was excommunicated by the Pope. There are a group of Lutherans today working to maintain their Lutheranism traditions while rejoining the Catholic church. It's a work in progress.

[grumpa]

Re LCMS, they still have a stated strong statement against abortion, gay rights, and evolution, but our experience is that too many within the synod reject the synod’s views. We left to join the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), even though this group is not the ideal solution either.

Some ELCA folks who are leaving will not join the LCMS because they consider it too exclusive on communion.

[Diana in Wisconsin]

“It’s a work in progress.”

I call BS. It’s been since the Middle Ages! Let’s get on with it. Enough of the back-sliding. Enough of the caving to gays and anything ‘pc.” *SPIT*.

I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. There was NONE of this stupidity when I was coming up.

I’m too old to wait around for religion to catch up with ME again...which means they’re moving backwards, LOL!

[VOA]

bump

[Diana in Wisconsin]

Yes!

[1010RD]

The lines are getting drawn more clearly every day. End times, no?

[Diana in Wisconsin]

“Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.” ~ Martin Luther

Sure. It started as a reformation. It became something else, entirely. Come on. We’re talking since 1517!! Let’s get with the program, People, LOL!

I visited Wartburg Castle while I was stationed in Germany, where Martin Luther was in exile. (Or ‘hidden away’ as others would say.) It was a once-in-a-lifetime experience and totally cemented my faith.

To see what MY church and belief system has become is very distressing to me. Show some compassion, Bro! ;)

[hinckley buzzard]

Yes. Notably pro-life.

And make no mistake: The ELCA is pro-abortion. Long before they expected me to take communion from the hands of a practising homosexual(god knows what he was "practising" before the service or where his hands were), the decision to give financial support to abortion was a deal breaker for me.

[SmithL]

And from the Advocate:

Lutheran Church Splits Over Gay Clergy

Members of St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Minneapolis voted on Sunday to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the nation's largest Lutheran denomination.May be a screen capture JPG that links to the video player, or an embedded video from an external source like YouTube.com

May be a screen capture JPG that links to the video player, or an embedded video from an external source like YouTube.com

-->

Following a 96% affirmative vote by members of the congregation, St. Paul’s Evangelical Lutheran Church in Minneapolis moved one step closer to splitting from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

The decision to leave came in response to the ELCA's general assembly vote in Minneapolis on August 21 to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy.

The new law lifts a restriction that had required gay and lesbian ministers to remain celibate.

According to St. Paul's senior pastor, the Reverend Roland J. Wells Jr., there are many pastors and members who are withholding funds from the national church and are working to establish a new denomination called Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ, reports Minnesota Public Radio.

"We feel quite affirmed by the hundreds of congregations who are contemplating the same move," Wells said in a news release.

The congregation will now consult the local ELCA bishop and conduct another vote 90 days from Sunday to finalize the split.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/09/30/Lutheran_Church_Splits_Over_Gay_Clergy/

---

Reader Comments

• Back to top Post a Comment
  Name: dogdoc2002
  Date posted: 10/1/2009 12:03:31 AM
  Hometown: Wisconsin
  
  Comment:

  What a bunch of babies. This has been voted on before, and as long as they win, everything is hunky dory. As soon as they lose, they pack up their toys and leave? Same deal with anti-marriage folks- we bust our asses and prove our case, and then when they don't like the results of us playing by THEIR rules, they change them. Ridiculus

• Back to top Post a Comment
  Name: Dan
  Date posted: 9/30/2009 10:16:31 PM
  Hometown: Austin, Texas
  
  Comment:

  Without congregations like St. Paul, ELCA will be more welcoming than ever.

• Back to top Post a Comment
  Name: Adrianus
  Date posted: 9/30/2009 7:52:29 PM
  Hometown: Northridge, CA
  
  Comment:

  Let them go. They are not worth keeping. Their teachings are poisoning your families & children. They'll vanish.

• Back to top Post a Comment
  Name: Dan
  Date posted: 9/30/2009 6:57:17 PM
  Hometown: PA
  
  Comment:

  So long bigots, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on your way out of the ELCA..............

[BillyBoy]

I see what you're saying. I was raised Catholic, both of my parents were raised Catholic. My grandfather on my dad's side (where I get my German ancestry from) was a lifelong Lutheran. He passed away when I was 17. While I have a bunch of Lutherans on that side of the family, I never really discussed religion with them. Recently one of my fellow freepers was married in a Lutheran wedding ceremony and I was a groomsman.

I've talked to Jews and they generally reply about my religion that "we Jews don't really think about Jesus unless a Christian brings him up". The same is probably true with most Catholics and Martin Luther. We never think "how would Martin Luther feel about this?" We only reflect on Martin Luther's teachings when a Lutheran mentions him.

I think you'll find most Catholics today would agree that Martin Luther had some valid points, the Catholic church had become really corrupted and worldly at the time (the 1500s). No doubt I can see why someone would be outraged that the Catholic church was selling indulgences to get into heaven (of course my church hasn't done that for 400 years, but was mainly prompted to stop due to Luther and his followers holding them accountable). But Martin Luther still remains "excommunicated" according to official Catholic doctrine, and the church shows no signs of rehabilitating him and undoing that since Lutherans won't renounce some of the "errors" that got him excommunicated in the first place (Christian churches are notorious for old wounds taking a long time to heal... when the Catholic and Orthodox church split in 1054, they didn't undo the excommunications until 1965)

The thing I would say my church has going for it is consistent doctrine. With Lutherans (and Protestants in general) you have all these little groups off on their own making up their own moral teachings as they go along. We have three major Lutheran groups in the U.S., the ELCA, the LCMS, and the WELS. I always assumed they were in communion with each other. I learned on FR that they are NOT, and that each interprets scripture differently. So for Catholics to reach a joint agreement just with American Lutherans, you'd have to negotiate with all three groups and get them to agree on the same statement. Needlessly complicated.

The Catholic church has a billion members. There are all kinds of different "factions" and types of Catholics out there, little movements and denominations, there are even little known Catholic churches under the Pope that AREN'T 'Roman' Catholic, for example the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and the Byzantine Catholic Church. But no matter what "faction" of Catholicism they belong to, they all have the same doctrine. A lot of protestants have a problem with a universal head of the church, but it does ensure little groups within won't "do their own thing" and fall victim to heresy. The main weakness I see in the Catholic church is they often fail to ENFORCE their doctrine and allow renegade priests to do whatever they want, as a result you have wacky heretical "Catholic" churches like Fr. Pfleger at St. Sabina worshiping Obama and promoting pro-abortion people.

I'm not trying to rehash the old Catholic vs. Protestant fight, but if you take a look at this video from 1:25 onward, you'll see the point I'm trying to make:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eluVxhM2qJo

You also may want to look into this group, if you want to maintain your Lutheran beliefs but don't feel comfortable being a member of any of the "official" major Lutheran denominations and want something closer to Catholic unity. But if you can find a conservative, traditional Lutheran group that you feel comfortable with, more the power to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Lutheran_Catholic_Church

[red irish]

Dang were not that bad! lol

[Diana in Wisconsin]

“You also may want to look into this group, if you want to maintain your Lutheran beliefs but don’t feel comfortable being a member of any of the “official” major Lutheran denominations...”

No, I don’t want to join a “group.” I want the church I was raised in, and the doctrine it taught, back. I want the Anerica I was raised in back.

Thanks for trying, though. I have no problem becoming Catholic. I would have no problem staying Lutheran if they’d get it together. The church deserted me with all their PC foolishness, not the other way around.

I know I’m not the only one out there that’s angry about this stuff. No wonder so many churches are bleeding members. Just get back to the basics.

[SmithL]

Some ELCA folks who are leaving will not join the LCMS because they consider it too exclusive on communion.

Close Communion has always been one of my issues with the LCMS. However, I visited a LCMS congregation last Sunday, and was pleasantly surprised when all believers were invited to commune.

[Mr. Lucky]

Closed communion is one of the strengths of the Missouri Synod which attracted me to join.

[Paul Sig]

Please tell me more. I’m a (former?) Lutheran who has converted to Catholism but to be honest miss my Lutheran roots. Is there a group of Lutherans negotiating with the Catholic church for reentry?

My own view is that many if not all of Luther’s objections have been dealt with over time and that Catholicism has evolved to meet Luther’s demands. NOTE: The Lutheran church, however, has continued to fragment (gay clergy marriage issue is prime example) and it would be best for both churches for the Lutherans to come back.

[BillyBoy]

>>> Please tell me more. I’m a (former?) Lutheran who has converted to Catholicism but to be honest miss my Lutheran roots. Is there a group of Lutherans negotiating with the Catholic church for reentry? <<<

Yes, that's the idea. I figured it might spark some interest here on FR with many disgruntled Lutherans who are looking into rejoining the Catholic church but want to maintain their Lutheran traditions, like the Augsburg Confession. Sadly though, you're the only one who replied.

They had a similar situation back in 1980 when the Anglican Church had gotten so liberal that many Episcopalians were looking to rejoin the Catholic church after 400 years, but had trouble adjusting to all the changes in Catholicism since that time. The Pope authorized an “Episcopal Rite” of the Catholic church that allowed Anglican priests who left the Anglican Church and took their whole congregations with them to maintain their old traditions while they assimilate into the Catholic church. There are still several “Anglician Rite” Catholic churches in the USA today, especially after the fallout from the Episcopalian Church ordaining a gay bishop.

The ACLC is an offshoot of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod that started in 1997 because they are willing to actively negotiate with the Catholic Church for re-entry. Their goal is to set up an network of Lutheran-descended congregations within the Catholic Church. So far they are not officially in the Catholic Church but it seems they've resolved just about every major issue that's divided the two churches for 500 years.

I got interested in this stuff about two years ago when I got tired of all the liberal American bishops in the Catholic church and the archdiocese of Chicago but I wanted to maintain my Catholic faith, so I joined the Byzantine Catholic Church. They're under the authority of the Pope but operate separately from the Roman Catholic Church of the U.S. Like the other churches I mentioned, they used to be in the Orthodox church for 600 years, but in 1642 they reunited with the Vatican and became the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity, with over a billion members, so they're pretty flexible with integrating different Christian traditions and movements under their umbrella.

Some links you may find helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Lutheran_Catholic_Church

http://www.anglolutherancatholic.org/

http://www.christalcc.org/ALCC.html

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=14&cuItem_itemID=23798

http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Anglo-Lutheran_Catholic_Church

http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp

[Dead Corpse]

Our church just north of Mlps, MN dropped as well...