America's debt to John Calvin

WORLD Magazine ^ | July 04, 2009 | John Piper

[BonRad]

Why ping me to this dreck? Did I do something wrong?

[stfassisi]

Coming from a Catholic backgroud,

Calvin denied the true presence in the Eucharist,therefore if you're Catholic you will realize Calvin is an extreme heretic

[MWS]

I said I came from a Catholic background... I lean Protestant these days. I am admittedly trying to decide which way to go.

Calvin denied the true presence in the Eucharist. He also taught the overriding importance of the Gospel message and the importance of having Christ in one’s life for one’s salvation, as well as the existence of a sovereign Triune God and the overall importance of the inspiration of Holy Scripture. There have been far worse heresies before and after Calvin than what Calvin himself taught. At least Calvin can be said to have adhered to the Nicene Creed.

[stfassisi]

“”I said I came from a Catholic background... I lean Protestant these days. I am admittedly trying to decide which way to go.””

I suggest you read the following

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist/Eucharist_016.htm

This coupled with EVERY SINGLE early church father WITHOUT even one single exception believed the True Presence of Eucharist.

Without these Church father's like Athanasius and others you would not even have a canonized Bible to read.

You need to ask yourself why God would use the reformers who had nothing to do with Bible canon to have authority to interpret scripture above those He entrusted to give you inspired scripture in the first place?

God is truth,Not confusion ,like John Calvin

[stfassisi]

The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

The Eucharistic Miracles of the World
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

Miracle Eucharist Video
http://dsanford.com/miraclehost.html

[stfassisi]

Your intolerance for views that differ from your own is like to that of Ahmadinejad.

Tolerance of evil approves of evil by not standing up against it.

You're not living in reality if you think tolerance of evil will bring peace.

This is what lazy blinded pluralists believes

[Judges Gone Wild]

First of all, I want to thank God that we, to this point, have the freedom to discuss man’s free will versus the sovereignty of God. Also, I’m pretty sure if you’re on FR, you don’t advocate the shooting of dissenters and the beheading of all ‘infidels’ as does Ahmadinejad. To your credit, you didn’t take the comparison personally. Not having read Institutes of the Christian Religion, I don’t know what Calvin wrote regarding the problem of evil. What I DO know is that “This is the work of God. That you believe in him who he has sent.” John 6:29

[Force of Truth]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm

http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/martin-luther-and-the-jews

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews

http://zionism-now.blogspot.com/2007/10/luther-and-jews.html

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/webBib/links/m.html

[Huber]

Happy Birthday Jean Cauvin...

“Calvin” like Machiavelli was a brilliant man who left us a mixed legacy.

Cicero (the FReeper, not the Roman Orator) makes some good points regarding the Christian work ethic, the establishment of Universities, etc., btw.

[Frumanchu]

On this we agree. Too bad you are intent on labelling those who oppose your viewpoint as “evil.”

[dangus]

>> In the rise of your university education . . . in the decentralized . . . character of your local governments . . . in your championship of free speech, and in your unlimited regard for freedom of conscience; in all this . . . it is demonstrable that you owe this to Calvinism and to Calvinism alone. <<

Wow. A perfect zero on historicity. The federated cantons pre-existed Calvin, whose own cantons went to war to dominate the others; Calvin didn’t recognize the freedom of conscience (Luther appealed to it at the Council of Worms, however); the university system was Catholic in origin, based on some Greek ideals; Calvin’s cantons abolished the Catholic mass.

Yet, such comments are so widely attributed to Calvin and not to other reformation leaders; can someone please explain why, instead of arguing as this post does from mere assertion?

[dangus]

>> As George III called the American Revolution, “That Presbyterian rebellion.” <<

Keep in mind that his intent was to slander it. ;^)

Doubtlessly, Presbyterianism (and congregationalism) did provide some of the impetus for the American Revolution. But so did Thomas Aquinas’ natural law, Augustine’s City of God, and the 30 years’ war resolution’s insistence on anti-sectarianism. And let’s not forget the French involvement. Everyone seems to be so keen to recall the Catholicism of the French in the 30 years’ war and the battles against the Huguenots, but conventiently forgets their Catholicism in the Revolutionary war. L’Enfant, De Toqueville, and many other French popularized the notion that the Revolution was consistent with Catholicism.

Doubtlessly, being a Catholic, I can find Catholic antecedents; I’m sure Anglicans and Lutherans can point to their own, as well.

[Cronos]

Calvinism is dead except in a few small pockets of America and England

Why do you say that?

[dangus]

I should note that I am quite aware of Calvin’s endorsement of usury, which made Switzerland fantastically wealthy and a center of commerce. But given the biblical problems with the practice of usury, and the fact that Capitalism does not, in fact, depend on usury, I was wondering if there were any particular statements Calvin made in defense of the free market, beyond his rebuke of the communalism of many Anabaptists. If I would link free markets to Protestantism, my first linkage would be to the rise of the merchant classes of England and Germany, following the vast depopulation of the black death. This merchant class was escaped from indenture; had the money to pay for their own bibles apart from religious instruction; resented the underutilization of church property after the plagues depopulated the clerical class which had served previously to mitigate overpopulation; and saw the countless religious feast days not as a break from labor but as a pesky interference with their commerce.

What did Calvin personally add to this, beyond opposing usury and the more radical protestant movements’ communalism?

[Cicero]

Thanks. I should have mentioned Hesiod, as well. His “Works and Days” isn’t as powerful on the importance of work as Virgil’s “Georgics,” but it does show that the idea of the value of hard work, agricultural labor in particular, goes back a long way.

And another significant work, demonstrating that Catholics understood the value of hard labor, would be the medieval “Piers the Plowman.” Also, the Rule of St. Benedict, even earlier.

[Nosterrex]

Because it is. Would you call the Presbyterian Church, USA Calvinist? Would you call the RCA or CRC Calvinist? Other than a few denominations, such as the PCA, I would say that Calvinism is dead as a door nail.

[Alex Murphy]

Because it is. Would you call the Presbyterian Church, USA Calvinist? Would you call the RCA or CRC Calvinist? Other than a few denominations, such as the PCA, I would say that Calvinism is dead as a door nail.

How about the Southern Baptists?

[Frumanchu]

Keep in mind that Catholics tend to view adherents to a particular theology strictly in terms of their membership in an institution which formally, confessionally subscribes to that theology. Thus we are repeatedly reminded that there are over a billion Catholics worldwide, while at the same time being given the "No True Catholic" rule when for instance any of them vote for a politician who supports abortion. At the same time, a person such as myself who is doctrinally Calvinist, but attends a church which is not formally Calvinist by confession, is not counted among that number.

Given the fact that it would be quite difficult to make such a count, the mere relative number of formally Calvinist congregations cannot truly be said to represent the relative number of Calvinist individuals without a reasonable demonstration that the two correlate.

[Nosterrex]

Southern Baptists aren’t Calvinist. Never have been.

[Cronos]

I don’t know — I’m not a Calvinist, I just wondered why you said that.