Posted on 06/19/2009 7:09:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Notice I got no evidence to support the false witness against me...only excuses. Despicable.
Clearly and the Lord's as well.
Listen, Bub, it is getting boring, really boring. Talking to the Robots of Calvin isn't fun, interesting or informative.
Please, please, ping me nevermore!
***Yes, when I said, “Mark, are you still on this bogus toot.” I was referring to you, not the renowned Dr. E.***
Then why was the post directed primarily at Dr. E.? No matter. Let us address the post.
***Your repeat of the fact that the Catholic Church had little or nothing to do with the recognition of the Scriptures seems only to underscore what I was setting out.***
This is the opposite of what I posted. If you have having trouble with words with more than one syllable, I shall attempt to adapt my posts to you.
***The Apocrypha is not even close to the Scriptures. And those spurious books are obviously non-Scriptural.***
The same body that selected Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the rest of the NT used the Septuagint and finally named it at Trent. If the Septuagint, used by Jesus, the Apostles and the Church up to this day is not good enough for you, then along with your repudiation of the Christian yardstick, the Nicene Creed, you may wish to repudiate any self identification as Christian.
***God founded His elect before the foundation of the world, according to the Scriptures (even those your club tries to claim ownership of; they ought to read them sometime). ***
You may have missed the accomplishments of Nicene and Augustine during your pontifications. The elect are all those who persevere; Jesus wills all men to be of the elect.
***This assembly of the First-born reaches all the way back to Adam (if he was among the elect), includes Abraham the Father of faith, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James and the myriads of rescued down through the millenia from every tongue, every tribe, every time in history. That, I believe, trumps the little self-aggrandizing cult from Rome that showed up around 350AD.***
Jesus trumps all; the misinterpretation of Paul; the misinterpretation of the Gospels; the heresies of the Reformation; the heresies of their children; and the apostate that self identify as Christians, as the elite and yet repudiate all the yardsticks that the Church of Jesus Christ has to indicate true Christianity.
Good luck with the self identification as God; you guys have more in common with the Mormons and the Hindus than you do with Christ.
God doesn't "will" people into disobedience. People naturally fall into disobedience.
If there was no free will, there would be no Sermons, there would be no parables, there would be nothing of Paul, and little of anything else in the NT since most of the NT is intended to be a teaching resource.
Of course there is. This is how God calls His people out. Why did God send the people of Israel to Egypt only to call them out again? There wasn't any decision of whether you could be a Jew or an Egyptian.
Why does God want us to preach to the lost when it is He that converts the souls. The truth is we don't know why God acts this way. All we know is that He does and we get to share in His glory in a very significant way.
***But it doesn’t say that God willed them to be disobedient.
God doesn’t “will” people into disobedience. People naturally fall into disobedience.***
But we have the issue of God issuing saving Grace to all men. God wills all men to be saved. So therefore there is something more than simple elite/non elite selected by God to be saved or damned.
1 Timothy 2:
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1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
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for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
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This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
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who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
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For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
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who gave himself as ransom for all.
###Paul says that Jesus wills everyone to be saved and that He gave Himself as a ransom for all men. How can one rationalize this away? If Jesus would have all men to be saved and all men are not saved, then the only explanation is that men are capable of accepting or rejecting it.
Now, what does Paul say about Judgement? Romans 2:
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1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. 2 For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
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We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
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Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
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Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
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By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
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who will repay everyone according to his works: 3
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eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
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but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
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Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
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But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
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4 There is no partiality with God.
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5 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
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For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
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For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
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They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
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on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Works. Judgement. Jesus Judges. God will repay everyone according to his works. This is Paul, who the Reformed misunderstand and build their theology upon that misunderstanding. There is only salvation through Jesus; yet we are Judged based upon the works that we have done upon receiving the Grace of Christ.
***If there was no free will, there would be no Sermons, there would be no parables, there would be nothing of Paul, and little of anything else in the NT since most of the NT is intended to be a teaching resource.
Of course there is. This is how God calls His people out. Why did God send the people of Israel to Egypt only to call them out again? There wasn’t any decision of whether you could be a Jew or an Egyptian. ***
But the Reformed keep claiming that the Holy Spirit programs all and therefore there is no need of teaching. What is the point, anyway? Teaching necessarily implies learning, which is a voluntary matter. Like love. Suppose that one refuses to learn? Does that Reformed elite then go to heaven or not?
***Why does God want us to preach to the lost when it is He that converts the souls. The truth is we don’t know why God acts this way.***
Yes, we do. Scripture is very plain. The Paulian verses above that I quoted state why.
***All we know is that He does and we get to share in His glory in a very significant way.***
I would prefer it you would identify the ‘we’ when you use statements like so that I can understand their intent, if you would.
But Augustine says (in various places)
"Faith, therefore, from its beginning to its perfection is the gift of God. And that this gift is bestowed on some and not on others, who will deny but he who would fight against the most manifest testimonies of the Scripture? But why faith is not given to all ought not to concern the believer, who knows that all men by the sin of one came into most just condemnation. But why God delivers one from this condemnation and not another belongs to His inscrutable judgments, and His ways are past finding out.' And if it be investigated and inquired how it is that each receiver of faith is deemed of God worthy to receive such a gift, there are not wanting those who will say, It is by their human will. But we say that it is by grace, or Divine predestination.""As to the great deep--why one man believes and another does not, why God delivers one man and not another--let him who can, search into that profound abyss; but let him beware of the awful precipice."
"Who created the reprobate but God? And why? Because He willed it. Why did He will it?-- 'Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?'" And again, elsewhere, after he had proved that God is moved by no merits of men to make them obedient to His commands, but that He renders unto them good for evil, and that for His own sake and not for theirs, he adds, "If anyone should ask why God makes some men His sheep and not others, the Apostle, dreading this question, exclaims, 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!'"
"when Christ prayed for Peter, that his faith might not fail, what else did He ask of God, but that there might be with, or in, Peter's faith a fully free, fully courageous, fully victorious, fully persevering will, or determination? And He had just before said, 'The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His.' The faith of such, which worketh by love either faileth not at all, or, if there be any in whom it does partially fail, it is renewed and restored before this life is ended. That iniquity which had interrupted it is done away, and the faith still perseveres unto the end. But those who are not designed of God to persevere--if they fall from the Christian faith, and the end of life finds them in that state thus fallen--such, doubtless, could not have been of this number of God's elect, even while they were, to all appearance, living well and righteously. For such were never separated from the general mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore were never 'called according to His purpose.'"
"Let no one think that those ever fall away who are the subjects of predestination, who are the called according to God's purpose, and who are truly the children of promise. Those who live godly in appearance are, indeed, called by men the children of God; but, because they are destined sometime or other to live ungodly, and to die in that ungodliness, God does not call them His children in His foreknowledge. They who are ordained unto life are understood, by the Scripture, to be given unto Christ. These are predestinated and called, according to God's purpose. Not one of these ever perishes. And on this account no such one, though changed from good to bad for a time, ever ends his life so, because he is for that end ordained of God, and for that end given unto Christ, that he might not perish, but have eternal life."
"Those who, by the all-foreseeing appointment of God, are foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified, are the children of God, not only before they are regenerated, but before they are born of woman; and such can never perish." He then assigns the reason: "Because (says he) God works all things together for the good of such; and He so makes all things thus to work together for their good, that if some of them go out of the way, and even exceed all bounds, He makes even this to work for their good and profit; for they return to Him more humble and more teachable than before."
"We most wholesomely confess that which we most rightly believe, that God, the Lord of all things, who created all things 'very good,' foreknew that evil would arise out of this good; and He also knew that it was more to the glory of His omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil, than not to permit evil to be at all! And He so ordained the lives of angels and of men that He might first show in them what free-will could do, and then afterwards show what the free gift of His grace and the judgment of His justice could do."
"When Christ shall appear (says he) to judge the world at the last day, that shall be seen, in the clearest light of knowledge, which the faith of the godly now holds fast, though not yet made manifest to their comprehension; how sure, how immutable, how all-efficacious is the will of God; how many things He could do, or has power to do, which He wills not to do (but that He wills nothing which He has not power to do); and how true that is which the Psalmist sings, "The Lord hath done in heaven whatsoever pleased Him." This, however, is not true, if He willed some things and did them not. Nothing, therefore, is done but that which the Omnipotent willed to be done, either by permitting it to be done or by doing it Himself. Nor is a doubt to be entertained that God does righteously in permitting all those things to be done which are done evilly. For He permits not this, but by righteous judgment. Although, therefore, those things which are evil, in so far as they are evil, are not good, yet it is good that there should not only be good things, but evil things also. For, unless there were this good, that evil things also existed, those evil things would not be permitted by the Great and Good Omnipotent to exist at all. For He, without doubt, can as easily refuse to permit to be done what He does not will to be done, as He can do that which He wills to be done. Unless we fully believe this the very beginning of our faith is perilled, by which we profess to believe in God ALMIGHTY!"
"These are the mighty works of the Lord, shining with perfection in every instance of His will; and so perfect in wisdom, that when the angelic and human nature had sinned-- that is, had done not what God willed, but what each nature itself willed--it came to pass that by this same will of the creature, God, though in one sense unwilling, yet accomplished what He willed, righteously and with the height of all wisdom, overruling the evils done, to the damnation of those whom He had justly predestinated to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom He had mercifully predestinated to grace. Wherefore, as far as these natures themselves were concerned, they did what they did contrary to the will of God; but, as far as the omnipotence of God is concerned, they acted according to His will; nor could they have acted contrary to it. Hence, by their very acting contrary to the will of God, the will of God concerning them was done. So mighty, therefore, are the works of God, so gloriously and exquisitely perfect in every instance of His will, that by a marvellous and ineffable plan of operation peculiar to Himself, as the 'all-wise God,' that cannot be done, without His will, which is even contrary to His will; because it could not be done without His permitting it to be done, which permission is evidently not contrary to His will, but according to, His will."
"This grace, which is secretly communicated to the hearts of men, is received by no heart that is hardened. Indeed, it is given for the very end that the hardness of the heart may be first taken away. When, therefore, the Father is heard within, He takes away the 'stony heart' and gives 'a heart of flesh.' For it is thus that He makes His own the children of promise and vessels of mercy which He had before prepared unto glory. If it be asked, Why He does not does thus teach all men, in order that they may come to Christ? the answer is, Because. those whom He does teach, He teaches in mercy; but those whom He does not teach, in judgment He teaches them not. For 'He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.' (Rom. ix. 18)"
"If any one of these should perish God would be deceived. But no one of them ever does perish, because God never is, or can be, deceived. If any one of these should perish, God is overcome and outdone by the sin of man. But no one of them ever does perish, because God can be conquered or outdone by nothing. The elect of God are chosen that they may reign with Christ for ever. They are not like Judas, who was chosen to a temporary office only, for which he was naturally fitted."
"Of these not one perishes, because they are all chosen according to a purpose; not their own purpose but God's. Seeing that there is not conferred upon them such a gift of perseverance, by which they may persevere if they will; but a gift by which they cannot but persevere."
"If, in the great weakness of this life (in the midst of which weakness there is nevertheless need of mighty power to keep down human vanity and pride), men were left to their own will, whether they would persevere or not, so that, under the helping power of God (without which they could not persevere at all), they might stand still if they pleased; and if God did not work in them that will, man's own will itself would, amid such and so great temptations, sink under its own infirmity. And thus men could not persevere at all, because, sinking under their own weaknesses, they would not be willing to persevere, or being willing, would not have the power. A remedy, therefore, is provided for the infirmity of human will by its being caused to act, unceasingly and inseparably, under Divine grace. Thus, the human will, though infirm in itself, cannot fail, nor be overcome by any infirmity of its own."
"That the redeemed are distinguished from the children of perdition by grace alone, which redeemed ones that common mass of original corruption would have gathered to the same perdition but for the free grace of God. Whence it follows, that the grace of God to be preached is that by which He makes men His elect, not that by which He finds them such."
"God did not (says he) choose us because we believed, but in order that we might believe, lest we should appear to have first chosen Him. Paul loudly declares that our very beginning to be holy is the fruit and effect of election. They act most preposterously, therefore, who put election after faith."
"When Paul lays down, as the sole cause of election, that good pleasure of God which He had in Himself, he excludes all other causes whatsoever."
Augustine cannot be rightfully represented as teaching that God wills all men to be of the elect.
Cordially,
Augustine says we CANNOT know who is the elect til the end because of perseverance and we don't know if we have the gift of perseverance while we are alive
“I Have now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive.” Augustine -Chapter 1 [I.]— Of the Nature of the Perseverance Here Discoursed of.
Don’t expect an honest answer here; just skirting issues as always.
She’s dead, Jim. LOL.
Hmmm, VERRRRY interestink. Creeds supercede the Bible now in their thinking?
Hah, they can’t keep them all straight.
She’s still IN her infancy.
Yes, Augustine does teach that God wills all to be elect.
He teaches it in a way like Aquinas does in saying that God is not the Creator of evil.
One would have to believe that there is goodness in Hell to think that God created someone for that purpose . We know that God creates all things good and there is no darkness in Him
“God is light, and there is no darkness in Him, (I John i, 5)” Far from God impiety, and iniquity from the Almighty (Job xxxiv, 10)”.
Augustine speaks of the error of the Manicheans who deny free will,thus blaming God for evil
” Because that discussion was undertaken for the sake of those who deny that the origin of evil is derived from the free choice of the will, and contend that God—if He be so—as the Creator of all natures, is worthy of blame; desiring in that manner, according to the error of their impiety (for they are Manicheans), to introduce a certain immutable nature of evil co-eternal with God.” Augustine-Chapter 27.— Reference to the “Retractations.”
Amen, Dutchboy. Thank you.
Anger? More like truth that folks don’t want to believe.
He didn’t say that, Mark. READ it before commenting.”Unless they align with the formerly revealed truth of the Scriptures.***
Still in her infancy? At 1960+ years?
LOL
You tell the BEST jokes.
I thought you got kicked off the thread.
Just for the record, in case anyone asks....
There is no simple way of determining whether some churches are "in the fold" of authentic Christianity or are apostate/heretical. We (the pro-creedal Christians) have to "take it on faith" that they (the anti-creedal Christians) are really our brothers in Christ. Now to some extent I'm exaggerating here in order to prove a point, but I think the question is a valid one.I would never suggest that a creed is a substitute for Scripture itself, nor would I suffer accusations that creeds are fabrications of doctrine. I would say that creeds are excellent summaries of where Scripture speaks to certain subjects, and exist as historic documents as to who took what side in ecclesiastical/doctrinal disputes. IMO creeds were wisely formed to "redeem the time" (Eph. 5:16) when testing or investigating the confessions of a professing believer, and continue to be smart tools for the churches' use today.
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By refusing to profess/acknowledge a creed, or at least publish/profess an "articles of faith" / "doctrinal statement", the anti-creedal believer and/or their congregation functionally accomplishes five things:- a tacit a priori rejection of every prior study and/or codification of doctrine formulated by any church body, at any and every point in church history,
- a practical behavior, if not an outright creed-like belief and teaching, that Wisdom ended in the first century (when special revelation did), effectively dismissing any and all possible wisdom acquired by any bible-believing Christian in any post-NT church era, contrary to Proverbs 2:6-9,
- an allowance of relatively minor points of doctrine (eschatology, worship forms and practices, ecclesiastical government forms, etc) to be granted equal status with major points of doctrine (the Trinity, nature of salvation, etc),
- an allowance for doctrinal stances to shift unknowingly from moment to moment, congregation to congregation, pastor to pastor, or even from week to week, without declaration or documentation,
- a willful sequestering of oneself from examination and correction by any congregation, visitors, friends, fellow believers and unbelievers, preventing all from discovering one's actual doctrinal beliefs without forcing a long, arduous and mandatory investigation.
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How does the applying member know what the church believes, if the church refuses to document and make their beliefs public?
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I am emphatically not suggesting that a profession of the creeds is required for eternal salvation. I am suggesting (and note that I only said suggesting) that a profession of a creed is required for covenantal self-identification with the earthly, visible Church.
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