Posted on 06/05/2009 9:05:52 AM PDT by Pmary65
First things first: If you want to observe these days and festivals, then go for it. I will not stop you.
Thank you.
But don't bring your Church of God teachings in here and apply this burden to all and seek to take away their liberty.
I am not.....not ever have been a member of the Church of God. It is my understanding that they do have some beliefs similar to mine. Other beliefs they have.... I very much disagree with. But......this isn't so strange as the Catholics and Protestants also hold some doctrine to be valid that I agree with too.....and some I don't. Cest la vie!
I submitted to you the writings of "Polycrates of Ephesus" (Early Church Father) and this of course came from the extensive "Church of God" library. As a matter of fact, you can also find the same writings of Polycrates on many other websites. I used the COG website as it is easy to navigate.
“ One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” KJV
Here I propose a time frame to those who firmly believe in a Wednesday Nisan 14th crucifixion to a (3 days & 3 nights) Saturday Nisan 17th resurrection.
I will present a day by day chronological time frame beginning with the step by step peripherals leading up to Jesus last Passover. Here I will combine the scriptural accounts (KJV) to reveal that a crucifixion on a Passover of Wednesday Nisan 14th was likely not feasible.
The Gospels tell us beginning with St. John Chapter 12;
(1)“Then Jesus six days (Thursday Nisan 8th) before the Passover (Wednesday Nisan 14th) came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.”
St. John Ch.12 con't...
(12) “On the next day (Friday Nisan 9th) much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,”
(13) “Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
St.Mark Chapter 11 (Friday Nisan 9th)
(7) “And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.”
(8) And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strewed them in the way.
(9) And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(11) And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
(12) And on the morrow (Saturday Nisan 10th), when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
(15) And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Exodus 12:1-6. (Nisan 10th / Nisan 14th)
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month (Nisan) of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth (10th) day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth (14th) day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
* The overall point here is that the day of procurement as prescribed in Exodus 12:1-6 for Nisan 10th occurs in this Gospel time frame on a weekend (7th day) Saturday Sabbath.
• The likeliness of working, and purchasing with money handlers on a Sabbath day would have been likely avoided back in that time by the Sanhedrin council whose duty was to govern the sacred calendar.
* As well for those who esteem a crucifixion event occurring on a Passover of Friday Nisan 14th where our Lord resurrected on a Sunday Nisan 16th. Here the verse St. John 12:1 would apply as follows;
(1) “Then Jesus six days (Saturday Nisan 8th) before the Passover (Friday Nisan 14th) came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.”
• The likeliness here of our Lord traveling on route leading the disciples from Jericho (~20 miles away) arriving in Bethany on a Sabbath day (rest day) is beyond comprehension.
* In my opinion both of these time frames suggest that the events one way or the other leading up to Passover and the events remaining to follow just don’t stack up?
Best Regards - Pmary65
Let's start from the beginning of the chapter.
This has to be absolutely one of the most misinterpreted chapters (Acts 15) of the entire scriptural record. First of all people assume that the Jerusalem Council is "Hell Bent" on doing away with God's Laws when the only subject was "Circumcision"!
[Acts 15:1] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the "manner of Moses", ye cannot be saved.
First of all.....what is the manner of Moses? We know that the covenant of circumcision was given to Abraham [Genesis 17:10] .....so it's really not part of the law of Moses which came 430 years later [Galatians 3:17]. In fact the word used here "ETHOS" in this case would not be translated as law because the covenant of circumcision was never given to Moses. ETHOS: 1485. ethos (eth'-os)a usage (prescribed by habit or law) custom, manner. The best translation would be either custom or manner. Here are ten translations of [Acts 15:1] and as you can see the translators felt that custom or manner is the proper wording for verse 1.
So.....what is the manner of Moses? [Exodus 12:43-49] 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let "all his males" be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
The false brethren from Jerusalem, described as such in [Galatians 2:1-5], wanted Paul and Barnabas to quit celebrating Passover with uncircumcised Gentiles! This is the only reference about uncircumcised Gentiles in any of Moses' writings. The false brethren were obviously not concerned about the Jewish converts and disciples [Leviticus 12:3] celebrating with Paul and Barnabas because they had already been circumcised as eight day old infants. So.....it was the uncircumcised Gentile converts they were upset about.....and it was only during Passover that the question became an issue.......after the manner of Moses!
Yes! here it is 20 years after the crucifixion and the Apostles are still celebrating Passover.....and instructing Gentile converts to do the same. This is why the Jerusalem Council was held because many Pharisees (including James, the brother of Our Lord) were upset because these uncircumcised converts were participating against the "Manner of Moses"! They believed that a Gentile who wished to participate of Our Lord's sacrifice was the same thing as a stranger living among the ancient Israelites who desired to partake of the Passover. So.....in addition to baptism these Pharisees felt that all strangers must also be circumcised to become part of the covenant people of Israel.
The Greek in verse 2 for "question" is ZETAMATOS. It is a singular word and can also be translated as "issue". Paul, having an earnest debate with these Pharisees from James and the Jerusalem Church finally agreed to go to a Council in Jerusalem which was considered at that time (49 A.D.) to be the location of the Church headquarters. The Apostle James, the brother of Our Lord, was considered to be leader of the Jerusalem Church.
It should be realized by now that the single issue of Gentile convert circumcision is what was on everyone's mind. The Mosaic Law was not an issue....either in Antioch or Jerusalem. In order to understand what in the world James talks about in verses 19-21 and the reason for his decision....this point is vital to understand.
As Paul is on his way to Jerusalem he is rejoicing about the conversion of the Gentiles. He has every reason to do this as he was the only Apostle given the authority by Our Lord himself to evangelize them [Acts 9:15]. When they reached Jerusalem they recounted everything to the elders and the entire congregation as to what they had been accomplishing in Antioch.
[Acts 15:5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Here is where people begin to forget that the Mosaic Law was not an issue.....and it's due to a very poor translation. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind after reading the first four verses that circumcision was the only point for the Jerusalem Council.....so why this apparent contradiction?
Well....this translation seems to indicate that certain Pharisees not only wanted the circumcision to happen....they also wanted the law of Moses to be kept! The reason most folks seem to agree with this statement is the simple fact that this is an incorrect rendering of the Greek. Let's look at the actual translation:
"dei [It is necessary] peritemnein [to circumcise] autous [them], paraggellein [to instruct] te [and] terein [to keep] ton [the] nomon [Law] Mouseos [of Moses]."
The Greek particle "TE" connects the two verbs PARRGGELLEIN (to instruct) and TEREIN (to keep) that can be said in a single phrase.....to instruct and keep the law of Moses. In other words, the Pharisees believed that the act of circumcision itself would do two things. It would educate the Gentiles on the law of Moses at the same time they were obeying that law.
[Acts 15:6-7] 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Both sides of this single issue had now been presented and both sides evidently had much support. Peter goes on in verses 8-10 to explain what had transpired with Cornelius: 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Peter's implied argument is that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit and he was not circumcised.
What exactly is the "yoke" that the Israelites could not bear? Peter, by his question....is rebuking those who wanted the Gentiles circumcised. The last two words in his statement, "ISCHUSAMEN BASTASAI" (were able to bear) are in the aorist tense signaling a one time event. His words to the council are construed to mean "The Pharisees are attempting to lay a burden on these adult, male, Gentile converts that not one of them would have been able to bear. That not one of these Pharisees would have had the strength to endure themselves.
Just how difficult was adult male circumcision? [Genesis 34:24-26] 24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city. 25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore (an understatement), that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males. 26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out.
Simeon and Levi were able to kill all the males of the city because they were in such pain they could not defend themselves.....and this was yet three days after the circumcision!
So.....it is very clear to anyone reading [Acts 15] that circumcising the adult male Gentile converts would have been very debilitating to them....to say the least. Adult male circumcision was never a requirement of the disciples and the Apostles of Our Lord because they had all been circumcised as eight day old infants. This is why Peter, Paul, Barnabas and other disciples who came to Jerusalem with them did not want to enforce this requirement...... after the custom of Moses!
Peter finishes up by stating a very simple fact! Circumcision does not save! Faith in Our Lord through the grace of God is what does it. Thereby.....he totally repudiates the position of the Pharisees and the false brethren sent from Jerusalem [Galatians 2:4][Galatians 2:12] to Antioch. These are the last words of the Apostle Peter in the book of Acts.
Paul and Barnabas come next and number all the events that have taken place through God's grace in their Antioch ministry....the miracles that proved to them that God was accepting these folks without the rite of circumcision.
[Acts 15:13-18] 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
When Paul and Barnabas finish James takes the floor and says some strange things. Remember, he is the leader of the Jerusalem Church....the brother of Our Lord, Himself. He confirms what Peter has said and then he quotes from [Amos 9:8-15] 8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. 9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. 11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. That was the entire prophecy and James was obviously referring to it.
This is clearly a Messianic prophecy speaking of the coming Kingdom of God. Because James is using these words tells us that he has probably identified the converted Gentiles of Antioch as descendants of remnant scattered Israelites from the Assyrian exiles 700 years earlier. What other reason would James have for quoting this prophecy about Lost Israel?
[Acts 15:19-21] 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
When I continue tomorrow....or the next day I will discuss why the above scripture in no manner refers to the dissolution of God's laws.
St. John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. KJV
- God Bless
That’s right on target Diego with “between the settings”, and if you look up the hour of prayer, the incense, and 9th hour passages you’ll find another proof of it -— also the business with Elijah.
Not to spoil your beautiful post, however one problem needs correting:
KJV Deuteronomy 16:6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even [ba’erev], at the
going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
This verse actually refers to Nisan 15 when they had an additional festival offering called “Passover”. The Passover and Exodus where two events, the Passover at midnight Nisan 15, and then they stayed in doors till morning. Then they went out during the day part of Nisan 15. They assembled in Rameses, and then as the sun set, they actually cross out of Egypt in the night at the end of Nisan 15. In the morning of Nisan 16 they baked their cakes. So they had a 24 hour march from dawn on Nisan 15 through the night of Nisan 16. This is well explained in my book. In any case the next verses show this to be the case:
KJV Deuteronomy 16:7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents. 8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no
work therein.
The Hebrew is “boil” in 16:7, not “roast”. And boiling was not permitted for the 14th offering. Also notice that “six days” remain in the morning. That’s because it was toward sunset on Nisan 15 when this festival offering was offered. Finally, the instruction to return in the morning, is because the night at the end of Nisan 15 is the night of watches for the Exodus.
Hi Pmary65, I will comment in [ ]
I would like to appeal to those who esteem one day more then the other. Romans 14:5
“ One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” KJV
[Not relevant to the Sabbath since Paul was talking about fasting. To esteem in the context was to fast, and not to esteem was to eat while someone else was fasting]
Here I propose a time frame to those who firmly believe in a Wednesday Nisan 14th crucifixion to a (3 days & 3 nights) Saturday Nisan 17th resurrection.
I will present a day by day chronological time frame beginning with the step by step peripherals leading up to Jesus last Passover. Here I will combine the scriptural accounts (KJV) to reveal that a crucifixion on a Passover of Wednesday Nisan 14th was likely not feasible.
The Gospels tell us beginning with St. John Chapter 12;
(1)“Then Jesus six days (Thursday Nisan 8th) before the Passover (Wednesday Nisan 14th) came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.”
[If you count with respect to the Passover sacrifice on Nisan 14, then count inclusively, but if with respect to the holy day Nisan 15, which also was called Passover, then count exclusively. So either way, Friday, Nisan 9 is when it was “six days before the Passover”.]
St. John Ch.12 con’t...
(12) “On the next day (Friday Nisan 9th) much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,”
[The next day is now the Sabbath — that is when the Triumphal entry occured]
(13) “Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
St.Mark Chapter 11 (Friday Nisan 9th)
[The Sabbath, Nis 10]
(7) “And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.”
(8) And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strewed them in the way.
(9) And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(11) And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
[Now it becomes Nisan 11, the day after the Sabbath]
(12) And on the morrow (Saturday Nisan 10th), when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
(15) And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Exodus 12:1-6. (Nisan 10th / Nisan 14th)
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month (Nisan) of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth (10th) day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth (14th) day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
* The overall point here is that the day of procurement as prescribed in Exodus 12:1-6 for Nisan 10th occurs in this Gospel time frame on a weekend (7th day) Saturday Sabbath.
[Yes, the day of the triumphal entry, but not the day of the cleansing of the temple]
• The likeliness of working, and purchasing with money handlers on a Sabbath day would have been likely avoided back in that time by the Sanhedrin council whose duty was to govern the sacred calendar.
[Nisan 10 consecration of the lamb was never moved due to falling on Sabbath]
* As well for those who esteem a crucifixion event occurring on a Passover of Friday Nisan 14th where our Lord resurrected on a Sunday Nisan 16th. Here the verse St. John 12:1 would apply as follows;
(1) “Then Jesus six days (Saturday Nisan 8th) before the Passover (Friday Nisan 14th) came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.”
• The likeliness here of our Lord traveling on route leading the disciples from Jericho (~20 miles away) arriving in Bethany on a Sabbath day (rest day) is beyond comprehension.
* In my opinion both of these time frames suggest that the events one way or the other leading up to Passover and the events remaining to follow just don’t stack up?
Best Regards - Pmary65
[The only substantial objection you offer is the presence of money changers on the “Sabbath”, but the cleansing of the Temple did not happen on the Sabbath.]
While in Hellenistic Greek one might put the resurrection on “one of the sabbaths” i.e. say the sabbath following the 7th day of unleavened bread, the word “one” is a semiticicm for “first”, i.e. “first of the sabbaths”, and the Lev. 23:15 instruction has this as the first sabbath after the 15th of Nisan.
Clearly, you are more freethinking and tolerant than a lot of others. Blessings.]
You leave us with something further to consider.
*I have understood John 12:1 as Thursday Nisan 8th counted inclusively as six days before Passover being on Wednesday Nisan 14th in the context of a time frame that I presented earlier.
The author of St. John at chapter 12:1 says clearly ‘before the Passover’. The same author clearly refers to the scene in St. John chapter 13:1 as ‘before the feast of Passover’. Here in a context with a feast day (i.e. feast of unleavened bread) beginning on Thursday Nisan 15th.
Again St. John 12:1 says ‘before Passover’ and St. John 13:1 says ‘before the feast of Passover’. It would appear then that the same author is making references to two separate occasions within the same Passover period.
If the author in St. John 12:1 had intended Friday Nisan 9th to be counted exclusively as six days before the feast of Passover Thursday Nisan 15th he could have easily said ‘six days before the feast of Passover’ in St. John 12:1 but he did not.
Therefore in my opinion ‘before Passover’ in St. John 12:1 applies as a clear reference to a six day count before Nisan 14th and not Nisan 15th.
*This same rule of thumb would apply in St. John 12:1 for the traditional belief where Jesus arrives in Bethany on Saturday Nisan 8th , followed by a Palm Sunday on Nisan 9th and a Passover on Nisan 14th being a Friday in this time frame.
- Best Regards
KJV Deuteronomy 16:6
But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even [ba’erev], at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. This verse actually refers to Nisan 15 when they had an additional festival offering called “Passover”. [End Quote]
The feast offering here was known as the ‘Chagigah’ that was killed and sacrificed on the closing afternoon of Nisan 15th.
This right was reserved privately to the temple high priests of whom they ate some of the Passover rations.
Some Commentators claim that the scene in St. John 18:28 pertains to the morning of Nissan 15th where priests not entering the hall of judgment consciously avoided any defilement from keeping the ‘Chagigah’ ritual held later on that same afternoon.
Uncleanliness would not likely have been an issue to the priests from entering a secular hall if the St. John 18:28 scene pertained to the morning of a Nisan 14th Passover preparation day.
Therefore some believe that Jesus last supper was a true Passover supper eaten the night before on the beginning of Nisan 15th.
The other points to consider were that these priestly ‘Chagigah’ sacrificial rituals were common knowledge to the peoples living back then in those times including the authors of the Gospels.
The Gospels referring to the ‘first (day) of bread’ (Nisan 15th) in Matthew (26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7) when the Passover must be sacrificed may be regarding the ‘Chagigah’ offering as that ritual in reference to the day the disciples were preparing for.
- Best Regards
At the end of the common meal in St. John 13:27 we read;
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. KJV
* It is at the end of this common meal setting that Satan enters Judas Iscariot. When we then look ahead to the Synoptic gospels there we will see that Satan was already at work within Judas before the Passover (Nisan15th) Seder had began.
Mark 14:10
And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.
Mark 14:17,18
And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luke 22:14. 15
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Matthew 26:26, 27
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
In John 13:27 Satan enters Judas at the end of the common meal but in Luke 22:3 Satan has already entered Judas at the beginning of the Passover meal.
- Best Regards
Subsequently many theologians purport that that our Lord’s last supper was a genuine ‘Passover Seder’ at the nightly beginning of Nisan 14th. Some others feel that our Lord’s last supper was a ‘common meal’ in the evening at the end of Nisan 13th. Many others believe that our Lord ate his last supper as a Passover Seder ritual observed at the designated time in the night beginning on Nisan 15th where he must have died later that same day.
I myself believe that the meal descriptions in St John 13 and that of the Synoptic gospels are 2 different meals where our Lord ate the last supper as a genuine Passover Seder in the night beginning on Nisan 15th where he had hoped to fulfill his Passover observations to the end of Nisan 21st but could not.
It was our Lord’s intent and further desire to complete the Passover formalities feasting on unleavened bread for another 6 days with the disciples but our Lord knew his time was being cut short. The disciples themselves may not have comprehended at that point in time that this was their last time being fully assembled. Nor could they comprehend the unfolding events that lay in store.
Best Regards - Pmary65
In those verses we commonly find the Koine Greek phrase; 'μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων' which is transliterated 'mia ton Sabbaton' and is translated to literally mean; 'one of the Sabbaths'. [End Quote]
It might be interesting to take note where the transliterated word ‘mia’ for ‘one’ is used at other instances in the Gospels. To those viewers who retain a Greek N.T. or an interlinear Greek N.T. it should appear quite visible.
Outside the resurrection verses (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; and John 20:1,19) of the New Testament the Koine Greek word μιᾷ transliterated as ‘mia’ is found in a few other N.T. references at; Mark 14:66 (one of the maids), and Luke 5:17; 17:22; 20:1. (one of the days) and Acts 21:7 (one day).
If you read into the context of each reference you may understand them better if the cardinal number ‘one’ is applied to them.
If you read into those references where the ordinal number ‘first’ is applied to them you may be questioning the meaning as to what is being meant there.
Some folk will refer to earlier Hebrew sources as an attempt to show that Greek sources are inadequate or insufficient for descriptions. Some literary and linguist Experts often claim there arises rare situations where ambiguity is prevalent in context for more then one meaning.
Often the translator will interpret upon their preconceived notions without considering or being made aware of the bigger broader picture.
- Best Regards
See post #9.
For some reason, I have never been able to fathom why these verses are used by some folks in an attempt to show the Jerusalem Council ending the Law of Moses??????
What does it say?
Don't eat food that has been sacrificed to Pagan idols! You know.....I think The Lord would still be happy if no one did that.....today! I don't know if there are places where food is sacrificed to pagan idols.....but I've got a feeling that God would be upset if we knowingly partook of that kind of food. Does this eliminate any Mosaic provision? Hardly!
How about not consuming blood....itself? Same answer. It does not eliminate any part of the Mosaic Law.
How about not eating the meat of strangled animals....and avoiding sexual immorality. Do these things eliminate Mosaic law?
Let's find out what in the world James was talking about and alluding to when he rendered his judgment.
First of all....was this the only thing Gentile converts were to do? Or were these just initial requirements they should undertake in their new walk with The Lord? These things are found in the Law and are known as "Halakah" or ...the "path one walks". These are commandments for strangers (aliens, Gentiles etc.) and they are found in the 17th and 18th chapter of Leviticus. So.....instead of James eliminating any Mosaic Law at the council....he is actually suggesting these new "Christians" begin to observe it!
These things were all outlined for strangers, living among the Israelites and were necessary before any stranger could be welcomed into the congregation of Israel. James is actually defining the path that these new Gentile converts in Antioch must follow to become "Christians"! Let's look at them one by one.
Abstaining from sacrificed meat: [Leviticus 17:3-9] 3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp, 4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people: 5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD. 6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savor unto the LORD. 7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations. 8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice, 9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people. Read also [I Corinthians 10:19-21].
Consuming blood: [Leviticus 17:10-14] 10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. 13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
Avoiding sexual immorality: [Leviticus 18:6-23] 6 None of you (includes strangers among them) shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. 9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. 14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. 18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. 19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Eating the meat of strangled animals: [Leviticus 17:15-16] 15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself (includes strangers among them), or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. 16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity.
So.....instead of James telling these folks to ignore basic tenets of Mosaic Law, he is actually telling them to observe it.....as new Christians! The Law of Moses was not the subject of the Jerusalem Council....but strangely enough its observance was actually recommended! He didn't go into many other things that were also in the law.....but he sure does cover that "sticky point" by indicating that these new converts would learn about them anyway.....as Moses is taught in the synagogues each and every Sabbath!
New Christian "Gentile" converts.....in other words, would learn all the ropes by attending Sabbath services each week.
[Acts 15:21] 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Some people, reading these verses of [Acts 15] should open their minds to what the Council was actually saying. It contradicts most of modern Christianity's version of things because they are so wrapped in in a "Anti Jewish" mode and have been conditioned by the mainstream church to reject any and all things that could be construed as Jewish! They neglect to realize that Early Christianity, before mankind fouled it up......was actually considered a sect of Judaism [Acts 28:22].
It was the opinion of James that new converts would be accepted by the Jewish brethren by observing these four items of Halakah and would learn other new important things every week by attending Sabbath services. If one was truly converted to Christianity these things would come with continued obedience and the new members would learn from [Leviticus 12:1-3] that they must have their infant male children circumcised....on the eighth day.
As a side note.....scripture indicates that many Gentiles were already attending Sabbath services: [Acts 13:14-32][14:1][17:1-4][17:10-12][17:17][18:4]
Then.....why does Judas ask this question: [Matthew 26:24-25] 24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
And.....[Mark 14:17-20] 17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. 19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? 20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
And.....[Luke 22:20-23] 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! 23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
But......the same story unfolds here: [John 13:21-30] 21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Are you saying that these four passages took place on two separate evenings?
How about this: [Matthew 26:30] 30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. The arrest is made in verse 57.
And this: [Mark 14:26] 26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. The arrest is made in verse 46.
And.....: [Luke 22:39] 39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. The arrest is made in verse 54.
But.....: [John 18:1] 1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. The arrest is made in verse 12.
So.....does He talk about betrayal on two different nights? Does He deal with Judas on two different nights? Does He go to the garden on two different nights? Is He arrested on two different nights?
Inquiring minds would like to know!
"If you look at the link you'll notice that in each case where the word Sabbatwn is used it designates either an Annual Sabbath (one of God's seven) or it designates one of the seven Special Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.' [END QUOTE]
My proposed time frame for Matthew 28:1 translated from the original Greek along with Diego1618's interpretation of Sabbatwn (Sabbaths) could be;
"At the end (after) of the Sabbaths (NISAN 15th & 21st being 2 of the 7 annual Sabbaths) as it was lighting up on one of the Sabbaths (Saturday Nisan 23rd the second Sabbath within a series of Seven Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost) came Mary Magdalene and..."
The word Sabbatwn (plural) applies only to 'special Sabbaths' that are part of a series. Any regular Sabbath that is not part of a series Sabbaths one way or the other cannot apply here.
Only a chronological time frame that 'FULLY' supports 'SPECIAL SABBATHS' as recognized in Matthew 28:1 need be recognized.
Best Regards
I'm convinced our Lord was one step ahead of the devil at all times. I believe our Lord could easily detected Satan's presence however the disciples appear a bit oblivious to the ramifications.
The verse of John 13:2 says; "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simons son,to betray him."
Thus being a time immediately after the common supper 'before the feast'.
The verse of Luke 22:3 says; "Then entered Satan into Judas..."
This is clearly before the dinner (Nisan 15th) that is mentioned later in Luke 22:15.
'I have desired to eat this Passover with you'.
The garden scene at St. John 18:1 is in the night of Nisan 15th after the Seder the same date for St. John 18:28 by the judgement hall in the morning and the Chagigah sacrifice in the evening.
Our Lord did talk about betrayal and did deal with Judas and the disciples on two (14th & 15th) different nights. They go to the garden only on the night of Nisan 15th where our Lord was arrested and incarcerated.
The chronological details in the Gospel of John appears sparse in some places.I had heard that the Gospels were recalled and written some 30 to 60 years after the actual events. The author of St. John was reported to have been 90 years old when he recalled upon his memory!
- Best Regards
"If you look at the link you'll notice that in each case where the word Sabbatwn is used it designates either an Annual Sabbath (one of God's seven) or it designates one of the seven Special Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.' [END QUOTE]
Now Matthew 28:1 In Young’s literal translation reads; “And on the eve of Sabbaths, at the dawn, towards the first of Sabbaths came Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.”
Here reads the Concordant Version for Matthew 28:1; “Now it is the evening of the sabbaths. At the lighting up into one of the sabbaths came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to behold the sepulcher.”
In regards to Matthew 28:1 we cannot deny that the Greek words σαββάτων' as Sabbatwn for Sabbaths being plural in meaning show up twice in the same sentence. Most Greek scholars agree that σαββάτων does not mean week. If they did we would have seen translations for Matthew 28:1 that could have appeared as;
After the week …on the week Mary… etc.
For the most part we got ‘After the Sabbath being singular in meaning which is totally incorrect according to Greek Syntax rules where any Koine word ending in ‘ων’ must be plural with no exceptions.
Matthew 28:1 has always been a challenge for interpreters to translate effectively. I can easily go on line and check out 20 various translations and they will all read differently. Has anyone ever seen the resurrection verses of a ‘Hexapla’ comparing the 6 parallel oldest English versions side by side? Has anyone ever looked at the resurrection verses in the original Miles Coverdale bible? Again it is interesting to see the variations of translations for Matthew 28:1
The common thing I have noticed is that Translators for the resurrection verses could not think out side of the box regarding the ‘week’ when they knew that σαββάτων meant Sabbaths.
They interpret their findings based on their hypothesis narrowing it down to one civil calendar week excluding the much bigger picture.
I am convinced that the Gospel authors had not intended to mention the civil calendar week in any way whatsoever regarding the resurrection verses based on their original accounts. They gave their Gospel accounts (30 – 60 years after the events) looking back generally speaking on the bigger picture that overall covered the Passover and Pentecost events as they would have played out within the Jewish sacred calendar.
It was only after the reforms of Constantine (in my opinion) that scripture was re-invented to fit the pagan practices of 'Sunday'(Apollo) first day of the week observances. The Christian practices and observances after that included some re-wordings of scripture which took on new definitions in meaning. Thus being what we have today.
Some Historians and Religious Commentators go as far as saying that they interpret many fourth century church practices as a historical acts of church apostasy.
May God Bless
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