Pope Benedict will not visit Israeli museum which denigrates Pius XII

CatholicNewsAgency ^ | Rome, Italy, Mar 7, 2009

[GonzoII]

Pope Benedict will not visit Israeli museum which denigrates Pius XII

Pope Benedict XVI

Rome, Italy, Mar 7, 2009 / 07:18 pm (CNA).- The Israeli ambassador to the Holy See on Friday said that Pope Benedict XVI will not visit Israel’s Holocaust Museum which accuses Pope Pius XII of inaction on the Holocaust. The news comes as a researcher announced on Friday that he had discovered a message from Pius XII that ordered monasteries to give refuge to Jews.

During the Pope’s May 8-15 trip, the pontiff will attend a memorial ceremony at the Yad Vasdhem site but will not visit the museum itself, Ambassador Mordechai Levi told the Italian news agency ANSA. Instead, the Pope, accompanied by Israeli President Shimon Peres, will light a remembrance fire and make a speech.

A caption of a Pope Pius XII exhibit at the museum reads:

“Even when reports about the murder of Jews reached the Vatican, the pope did not protest, either verbally or in writing. In December 1942, [Pius XII] abstained from signing the Allied declaration condemning the extermination of the Jews. When Jews were deported from Rome to Auschwitz, the pope did not intervene.

"The pope maintained his neutral position throughout the war, with the exception of appeals to the rulers of Hungary and Slovakia toward its end. His silence and the absence of guidelines obliged churchmen throughout Europe to decide on their own how to react."

Despite Pope Pius XII’s wartime actions which saved many Jews from Nazi persecution, he has been persistently attacked by some critics who adopt the same line of attack as the caption in Yad Vashem.

The Holy See’s representative to Israel has objected to the caption, as have other Catholics. Ambassador Levi’s comments came after reports that the exhibit caption might be changed.

A debate at Yad Vashem will reportedly take place on Sunday and Monday. The gathering will look at Pius XII in light of the latest historical evidence.

Organizers said the conference will see “if there is something new or something which has to be completely revised” because of new research, ANSA reports.

Recently, Fr. Peter Gumpel, the promoter of Pope Pius XII’s cause of beatification, revealed a note by Pope Pius XII from the archives of a Roman monastery which directly ordered monasteries to shelter persecuted Jews.

“The Holy Father wishes to save his children, the Jews as well, and orders that the Monasteries provide hospitality to these persecuted people,” the November 1943 note reads.

Speaking to Vatican Radio, Fr. Gumpel said there are “numerous oral testimonies” from priests, nuns and others about the Pope’s actions during World War II, but Pius XII’s detractors often demand written evidence.

Fr. Gumpel argued that it would have been dangerous to commit such orders to paper in a time of war and hostility.

He said the rediscovered note could be useful in countering “those who persistently denigrate Pius XII and attack the Catholic Church.”

Yad Vashem’s controversial caption appeared in 2005 when a new museum was unveiled. In 2007, Vatican Ambassador to Israel Archbishop Antonio Franco refused to attend the annual Holocaust remembrance ceremony at Yad Vashem because of the caption.

Copyright @ CNA
(http://www.catholicnewsagency.com)

[Cronos]

My position is quite simple. To consider the deaths of all Hitler's victims as part of the "Holcaust" and then to accuse Jews and Israelis of "Holocaust denial" is a loaded, anti-Semitic phrase that doesn't belong here on FR.

Yes, semantics and words can make a difference. We can't accuse Jews who do acknowledge the genocide by the Nazis in any way of holocaust denial -- at worse, if they have not heard of the genocide of the gypsies, we can say they haven't heard of it. The deaths of Hitler's targetted victims were genocide against the gypsies and genocide against Slavs, just like it was genocide against Jews. All despicable acts and which we should never fail to condemn

I apologize for my lack of historical knowledge about the Gypsies. I had read that while some Gypsies (who are "Aryans," btw), were persecuted others were left alone.

That's not completely true -- the gypsies have been reviled by Europeans for most of their history (and still face persecution in parts of Eastern Europe until recently).

The Jews are the center of history. This is an objective fact. Only Jewish history begins with the creation of the world. And among the nations only Israel is eternal. These are facts I had no role in creating. I merely acknowledge them.

Thank you for taking this point objectively and purely from a historical point of view. All religions begin with the creation of the world (except perhaps Jainism which doesn't consider the world as ever being created). The history of the Jewish "people" in the sense of the "Israelites" starts from the time when the Hebrews left Egypt (c. 1200 BC) -- prior to that they were a single family unit from Abraham's time. The Israelite people survived as one joint entity until the Assyrian disperal of the Northern tribes. From that point on you have the Judaen people's history or the history of the 'Jews' in the narrow sense.

Even the histories of Greece, Canaan, Sumer, etc. begin with the creation of the world

"Among the nations, only Israel is eternal" -- Israel IS eternal, no doubt, but the "only" nation? No, that's disputed -- China and India and Japan would dispute that statement very strongly. The history of the first two predate the Exodus. Also, there were nations that survived for millenia -- like the Egyptians from 3100 BC (when Upper and Lower Egypt were united by Pharaoh Narmer/Menes) until 31 BC when it was incorporated into Rome, like the city of Jericho that dates back to 9000 BC, like the civilisation of Sumer that dates back to the same time and continued for millenia, even after conquest by the Akkadians (Semitics) in 2000 BC, Sumerian language, culture and religion survived.

If you take Song dynasty culture, language and ethnicity, then Zhonggua (China) too has survived for millenia. If you take Bharat as a unified entity, then India has survived for millenia.

I just dispute, dispassionately, the statement that Jewish history is "central" to world history -- it is a very important component of and very key to the root of European, Middle-Eastern and North American history while impacting the rest of the world, but it is not the CENTER of all history -- there is no one civ that I believe is the be-all center, there are many that are in the center (Jewish history being one of the central ones).

[Cronos]

the Article is wrong on one count “Roma and Sinti are the proper names for the descendants of the non-Aryan groups from northern India who migrated to southeastern Europe in the 13th century and became itinerant craftsmen” —> Roma ARE Aryans. Like other Northern Indians, they would have a largely “pure” Aryanic heritage with admixture between Aryanic groups like the Indians, Greeks, Scythians, Kushans, etc and also with mixture from non-Aryanic groups like the Hephthalites (White huns)

[GonzoII]

From the article: "The Final Solution of the Gypsy Question" appeared in a document signed by SS Chief Heinrich Himmler."

So it appears to me that the Gypsies were indeed victims of a holocaust. They were also along with the Jews destined by the Nazis for extermination based on race...?

[Zionist Conspirator]

I believe the Jewish People are at the center of history because I believe in the Jewish G-d and the Torah.

[Zionist Conspirator]

The extermination of the Jews was different from the atrocities committed against Gypsies and Slavs. The Nazis considered them the source of everything wrong with the world and intended their absolute extermination, something not planned for the Slavs.

[Cronos]

The extermination of the Jews was different from the atrocities committed against Gypsies and Slavs. The Nazis considered them the source of everything wrong with the world and intended their absolute extermination, something not planned for the Slavs.

The same idiotic idea "that they were the source of everything wrong in the world" was also used against the gypsy -- as some kind of vermin. Yes, that was different from the hatred directed against the slavs.

[Cronos]

I believe the Jewish People are at the center of history because I believe in the Jewish G-d and the Torah.

That doesn't make them the center of History in any way. The Jewish religion is the root or the central part of your faith, but the Jewish people were not at the center of history -- numerous great empire flourished far away from Jewish lands!

[Campion]

The Nazis were perfectly clear that they intended to exterminate groups other than the Jews.

The Gypsies, for one. (And they made a start on that.)

But long term, they intended to exterminate Poles and other Slavs in the territory they conquered. This was to be done by attrition due to starvation, overwork, and disease, and by preventing reproduction using abortion and contraception.

(It's all in Shirer's book.)

[Cronos]

I believe the Jewish People are at the center of history because I believe in the Jewish G-d and the Torah.

That doesn't make them the center of History in any way. The Jewish religion is the root or the central part of your faith, but the Jewish people were not at the center of history -- numerous great empire flourished far away from Jewish lands!

I read your post where you said you aren't Jewish or an Israelie. I doubt any Jew or Israeli would say that the Jewish people are at the epicenter of history -- religious Jews would say that they are at the heart of God's plan, but not at the center of history

[Zionist Conspirator]

To repeat: to refer to everyone killed by Hitler as "the Holocaust" and then accuse Jews/Israelis of "Holocaust denial" is an obscene inversion on a par with comparing Israel to the Nazis (lehavdil). To have such charges on Free Republic discredits the forum and the movement it represents.

And this comes from someone who very much disagrees with the centrality of the Holocaust in Jewish identity.

[Zionist Conspirator]

The fact that human reason doesn't see the connections doesn't mean that Israel is not the center of world history. According to the Book of Deuteronomy, HaShem allots the borders and populations of all the nations in accordance with the number of the Children of Israel.

By the way, I am not Jewish.

[Cronos]

The book of Deuteronomy doesn’t mention China, Russia, Western Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, Australia or North / South America.

[Zionist Conspirator]

The book of Deuteronomy doesn’t mention China, Russia, Western Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, Australia or North / South America.

I didn't say it did.

You religious liberals!

[Cronos]

By the way, I am not Jewish.

I know that

I said "I read your post where you said you aren't Jewish or an Israelie. I doubt any Jew or Israeli would say that the Jewish people are at the epicenter of history -- religious Jews would say that they are at the heart of God's plan, but not at the center of history "

No Jewish person or Israeli would claim that the Jewish people are the epicenter of history and that everything revolves around them.

Sumer existed before Israel, in fact Abraham was an Akkadian who came to Sumeria 2000 and more years after the great cities of Uruk, etc. were set up.

[Cronos]

Nope, not a religious liberal, far from it.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Nope, not a religious liberal, far from it.

You obviously don't accept Deuteronomy's assertion that the borders and numbers of the nations are decided based on the numbers of the Children of Israel, and apparently because "the author of Deuteronomy" was a primitive who didn't know about China or South America.

Whereas of course the author of the Torah is G-d (not even Moses, much less JEPD) and this bit of information about the connection between Israel and the Nations is a very mystical truth.

[Cronos]

tell me where Deuteronomy talks about the nations of the world that weren't in the immediate neighborhood of the Israelite tribes? Deuteronomy's geographical facts are of it's time. Do you mean to say that China and the USA don't exist because they aren't in Deuteronomy?

Do you mean to say that Deuteronomy also defines what should be the borders of Jordan and Kuwait and Djibouti?

[BroJoeK]

MIT BRENNENDER SORGE

I take this piece as a clear warning to Nazis, but a warning with no threat. By contrast, if I understand correctly, you could not be both Communist and Catholic at the same time.

Let me put it this way: were any Nazis ever excommunicated, either for their Nazi ideology, or for their genocidal behavior? I can't think of a one, including Adolf Hitler!

[BroJoeK]

"Most of the accusations of our saintly Pope Pius can be traced to a single originating source: “The Deputy”, by Rolf Hochhuth’s 1963 play that created an image of Pius as a moral coward."

I never saw "The Deputy," but have two books here on the subject: Peter Godman's 2004 book Hitler and the Vatican, which have read, plus Michael Phayer's 2000 book "The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930 - 1965" which am just starting.

The case both books make is: the Church was not nearly as anti-Nazi as it could have and should have been. Of course, we could easily say such things about Britain's Neville Chamberlain, or other leaders of the time, but none of them are being considered for sainthood.

In this regard, we might note your quote from Rabbi Dalin: “Pius saved more Jews than even Oscar Schindler”.

Schindler saved how many? Several hundred? A few thousand? And of the three million Jews who survived, how many is it said the Pope saved, and by what means? And of the many millions more of non-Jews who died, how many of those did the Pope attempt to save?

It seems to me a strong case can be made that the Pope was far to concerned with saving his own pathetic life to risk it in attempts to save the lives of millions -- of Central European Catholics, northern European Protestants, Eastern European Orthodox Christians, to say nothing of six million Jews!

A Pope who would even survive such an onslaught against every form of Christianity, is not worthy of the title "Pope," much less that of "saint," --imho, of course. A true saint would have followed the example set by the Church's Founder.

[conservonator]

Let me put it this way: were any Nazis ever excommunicated, either for their Nazi ideology, or for their genocidal behavior? I can't think of a one, including Adolf Hitler!

Every NAZI who was baptized Catholic and who by deed, word or belief rejected the faith they were baptized in was automatically excommunicated:spiritual suicide if you will.

When a coroner officially pronounces a corps dead, it doesn't mean the corps was alive until that point. Dead is dead with or with out the "official" recognition; same with excommunication.