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House Speaker Pelosi’s 1500-Year-Old Ecclesial Sound Bite: Bishop Robert Vasa
Orate Fratres ^ | 09.03.08 | james mary evans

Posted on 09/03/2008 11:31:06 AM PDT by james mary evans

BEND - It is not possible this week to write about things related to the Catholic Church without making special note of the comments of a high-ranking U.S. official regarding abortion. This official, drawing from the rich tradition of the teachings of Saint Augustine, implied that he would have permitted abortion up to three months after conception. As has been well reported by others, Saint Augustine was working from the defective science of his day and he was trying to reconcile what he understood from science with the philosophical views of his day. It should be noted that Saint Augustine died in 430 AD.

In order to give a fair treatment of Augustine’s view I turn to an entry by John C. Bauerschmidt, Abortion, in Augustine Through The Ages: An Encyclopedia. He writes:

“Abortion: Augustine, in common with most other ecclesiastical writers of his period, vigorously condemned the practice of induced abortion. Procreation was one of the goods of marriage; abortion figured as a means, along with drugs which cause sterility, of frustrating this good. It lay along a continuum which included infanticide as an instance of ‘lustful cruelty’ or ‘cruel lust.’ Augustine called the use of means to avoid the birth of a child an ‘evil work:’ a reference to either abortion or contraception or both...”

(Excerpt) Read more at fratres.wordpress.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: abortion; bishoprobertvasa; brokawinterview; catholic; nancypelosi; pelosi
This just in from the Catholic Sentinel on Fratres...

Bishop Vasa weighs in Nancy Pelosi's theology. http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/house-speaker-pelosis-1500-year-old-ecclesial-sound-bite-bishop-robert-vasa/

1 posted on 09/03/2008 11:31:07 AM PDT by james mary evans
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To: james mary evans

Pelosi, Biden, heretics.


2 posted on 09/03/2008 11:36:45 AM PDT by frogjerk (MSM: We will not question Obama bin Biden...)
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To: Coleus; narses

Ping


3 posted on 09/03/2008 11:39:16 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: frogjerk

Methinks Pelosi and Biden need a couple of nuns to set them straight.

With rulers, if necessary (and they probably will be).


4 posted on 09/03/2008 11:40:54 AM PDT by JeffChrz
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To: james mary evans

Has the WaPo hag Sally Quinn (Ben Bradlee’s spouse) screeched at Pelosi for ignoring her maternal duty to her 5 kids to serve as Speaker? Nah, didn’t think so.


5 posted on 09/03/2008 11:54:33 AM PDT by RoadKingSE (How do you know that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a muzzle flash?)
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To: james mary evans; cpforlife.org; narses; Coleus
"As has been well reported by others, Saint Augustine was working from the defective science of his day and he was trying to reconcile what he understood from science with the philosophical views of his day. It should be noted that Saint Augustine died in 430 AD. "

A little above Pelosi's and Obama's pay grade.

6 posted on 09/03/2008 12:02:13 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: RoadKingSE

An excellent point.


7 posted on 09/03/2008 1:13:59 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: james mary evans
Thank you for this informative post. It is good that Catholic bishops are standing up to Pelosi/Biden/Kerry distortionists of Church teaching, while practicing their faith on morally shaky grounds.

St. Augustine's beliefs were heavily influenced by pagan Greek thought which recognized vegetative, animal and human souls. It was believed, probably form the appearance of aborted fetuses at different stages of gestation that an embryo underwent existence in different natures, vegetative, animal and finally human.

The ancients assigned 40 days for males and 90 days for females to "reach" the human stage, so they naturally didn't see abortion per say as killing a human being if it was done before 40/90 days.

This belief continued throughout the early and middle Church periods, with popes echoing Augustinian position on this. It was outlawed for the first time by a pope in the 14th century, only to be reversed a century later, and once again outlawed for good in the 17th century.

It is also important to remind ourselves that at that time, the Catholic dogma of Immaculate Conception was not proclaimed, and that not all Catholics believed it.

Pelosi & Co. is correct that the Church, holding on to pagan Greek science, believed abortions were not murder before 40/90 days (although the Eastern Church never accepted that thinking and never condoned abortion).

However, the Church in the West proclaimed the dogma of Immaculate Conception in the middle of the 19th century and Pelosi, as well as all other Catholics are required to believe it.

And the dogma says that Mary was full of grace at the conception. Obviously that doesn't happen to vegetables. The only way she could full of grace at the conception if she had a human soul.

What happened in the past was simply reflecting the Church philosophy based on incomplete science and lack of dogma regarding the issue. It was ignorance and intention and Pelosi cannot use it as as justification. Moreover, as a Catholic she cannot believe in abortion and IC at the same time.

8 posted on 09/03/2008 1:53:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

ignorance and intention = should read “ ignorance and NOT intention”


9 posted on 09/03/2008 1:55:38 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
the Eastern Church never ... condoned abortion

Neither did the Western Church.

10 posted on 09/03/2008 3:24:25 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS
You are wrong. The Church up to St. Augustine, starting with +Barnanbas and +Clement, all the way through the Council of Elvira, the Church held that nothing justified abortion.

St. Augustine (4th century), in his On Exodus (21, 80) changed all that (and then some). He embraced pagan Aristotelian theory known as "delayed ensoulment" which basically states that human soul cannot abide in an unformed body.

Thus a fetus destroyed before it begins to "look" human was not considered human because it didn't have human soul according to that theory, and therefore destroying a fetus before 40 days of gestation (90 days for females) was not considered murder.

That this is what the Church believed in the 5th century  is made crystal clear by St. Jerome says in his Epistle [121, 4]

"The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [i.e. abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs

According to the early 8th century penitential of the Church in England, oral sex was punishable by  years to a lifetime of penance; aboriton only 120 days!

Obviously the Church did not consider abortion to be on the par with "alternative" sex practices.

At the end of the 9th century, Pope Stephen V in his letter to the Archbishop of Mainz sows that abortion was not equal to infanticide:

"If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old."

Pope Innocent III (late 12th century, early 13th century) ruled that a Carthusian monk who arranged for his lover to have an abortion ruled that he wa snot guilty of murder if the fetus was not animated.

He taught that the fetus is animated when the woman begins to feel its movement (quickening). After that point abortion was equal to murder (homicide).

St. Thomas Aquinas, also 13th century, shared this view.

In the 15th century, Pope Sixtus V basically prohibited  abortion at any stage. This was revoked by Pope Gregory XIV (5th century)  who re-set the "timer" to 116 days (vs 40/90 of Augustinian time)

By the 17th century, with advancing medical knowledge, the Church developed what is known as the "simultaneous animation."  It was a Franciscan monk Hieronymus Florentinius who stated that all aborted fetuses must be baptized, but this was not the Church teaching.

It was not until Pope Pius IX that any definition of "animation" was dropped in 1869, but abortion per se was still not outlawed by the Church .

It was Pope Leo XIII who prohibited any form of abortion that caused death to the fetus. He did that in 1886.

Nevertheless, with Immaculate Conception as a dogma and the official teaching of the Church, there is no room for any Catholic to appeal to historical precedence, which was obviously based on the false (pagan) belief in various stages of animation.

11 posted on 09/03/2008 5:19:33 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

I think you are mixing up two things that the Eastern Church correctly linked, but the West did not. The Western Church has always condemned abortion. The issue is that the Western Church did not always phrase abortion as murder, yet nonetheless condemned abortion.


12 posted on 09/03/2008 6:52:11 PM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat
The Western Church has always condemned abortion. The issue is that the Western Church did not always phrase abortion as murder, yet nonetheless condemned abortion.

Do you have any references?

13 posted on 09/03/2008 9:52:02 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: james mary evans

Bishop Vasa bump.

All the bishops need to speak out publicly on this.


14 posted on 09/03/2008 11:18:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: james mary evans
So far I have these Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops, and I know I am missing a couple. If anyone could supply them, I would be grateful.

Cardinal George
Cardinal Egan
Cardinal Rigali
 
Archbishop Chaput
Archbiship Burke
Archbishop Wuerl
 
Bishop Conley
Bishop Saltarelli
Bishop Aquila
Bishop Lori 
Bishop Zubik
Bishop Sheridan
Bishop Vasa

15 posted on 09/03/2008 11:21:18 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: kosta50
Respect for Unborn Human Life: The Church’s Constant Teaching (PDF)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law” (No. 2271).

In response to those who say this teaching has changed or is of recent origin, here are the facts:

For more information: Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Procured Abortion (1974), nos. 6-7; John R. Connery, S.J., Abortion: The Development of the Roman Catholic Perspective (1977); Germain Grisez, Abortion: The Myths, the Realities, and the Arguments (1970), Chapter IV; U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, On Embryonic Stem Cell Research (2008); Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae (1995), nos. 61-2.
16 posted on 09/03/2008 11:56:25 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: kosta50

Even if you read the St. Augustine quotes from Nancy Pelosi, he is against abortion. Rather he is debating if we are aborting a human or something else. Its really bad science, that’s for sure.


17 posted on 09/04/2008 6:36:25 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: ELS; Kolokotronis; StAthanasiustheGreat
Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion

It was not until Pope Leo III (1886) that any abortion that caused death to the fetus was outlawed as homicide at any stage. The Church obviously considered abortion as sin (because it was seen as a form of "contraception" for unwanted pregnancies). In the 8th century, the Church in England provided for life-long excommunication for oral sex but only 120 days for abortion.

I am not defending Pelosi & Co. I am on the record condemning her statement. I am just showing where the confusion comes in. Thanks to St. Augustine, the western Church adopted Aristotelianin (pagn) belief that an "unformed" infant is not human. The West did not consider (depending on the gender of the infant 40/90 day old) fetal abortion as homicide. The East did all along, because that comes from acient Judaism (I am not sure how the Jews view abortion today).

You can't use "insufficient" knowledge of science as justification for this because, as your Catechism asserts, the Church from the beginning condemned abortion as murder. It was only the West that began to differentiate between killing and not killing based on pagan science.

Blaming the Septuagint for St. Augustine's mistake is also a rather unimpressive argument given that the Orthodox Church uses Septuagint as the Old Testament (as the early Church did), and that it never drew Augsutinian-like conclusions from it, but rather rejected Augustinian beliefs in most cases as something alien to the early Church.

18 posted on 09/04/2008 8:54:57 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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