Posted on 06/06/2006 11:58:40 AM PDT by dukeman
A Debate between
William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman
On March 28, 2006, Dr. Craig, Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California, and Dr. Ehrman, James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, debated the status of the Christian claim to Jesus' resurrection from the perspective of historical data. The debate was sponsored by the Center for Religion, Ethics and Culture and the Campus Christian Fellowship.
If they would have waited....they still would have got Paul.
These are the verses in the Psalms that Peter speaks of in verse 20 of Acts 1. Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8
There were more than 12 apostles--or 13. You forget Apollos, about whom Paul says nice things but about whom we know almost nothing else.
They polls have already been conducted, nicht wahr? Reform Judaism, like liberal Christianity, is an enlightment faith, a fact that is known by orthodox rabbis in Israel and, I guess, elsewhere.
Really how then can you explain most all democrats.. and some/many republicans that think this country is a democracy?..
Democracy is and always has been Slavery by Government.. a fact obscured to ALL Canadians, those in URP, Russia, China, Isreal, and mostly the United States.. (most of this planet really).. Its a scam.. democracy.. And some worship it.. We can put food in cans that will last for ages with no refrigeration.. But have advanced to Slavery by Government..
Real smart......
So let it be written.. so let it be done..
Its been said, "The sheep MUST be separated from the goats"..
And thats a good thing.. Beautiful plan..
Mountain Sheep can appear to be Mountain Goats at a distance..
Yes, that's what I was afraid of.
My insistence on ration and reason as a basis of understanding life mysteries just seems to be an obstacle to belief in Christ.
Actually, I too have 'been there, done that'. I was raised Roman Catholic. I *tried* that route.
Didn't have any luck, myself.
Guess I wasn't chosen!
At this initial stage we're simply addressing whether we can know with reasonable historical certainty that a man named Jesus lived in 1st century Palestine and was crucified because of his teachings. I think the reasons for accepting those facts outweigh the reasons for rejecting them.
We know that Pilate really existed as the governor of Judea at that time from coins and stone inscriptions. The fact that theee diverse and independent ancient, extra-Biblical writers noted the existence of Jesus and his death by execution is strong support for those facts, even if the writers did not see the events firsthand. We would know very little about the ancient world if we accepted as evidence only what we can prove with great certainty was written down by an eyewitness. We don't have that luxury. We are weighing a body of evidence on the best scale we can muster to see whether we can be at least "somewhat certain" (from the continuum in my earlier post) of an historical fact.
I've avoided talking about the Gospel accounts of Jesus and his death up until now because I sense you regard them as unreliable for reasons of bias. But it is fair to say that those writings are useful evidence to consider since they were written either personally or dictated by eyewitnesses to the events at a time close to when the events occurred. Any historian would consider them and adjust for the bias factor. Note that none of the foregoing argues for, or depends upon, an inerrant nature or inspired source for the Gospels. And you can even leave out the supernatural stuff if you'd like-- The Gospels hold up under the tests applied for measuring any ancient historical documents.
Can you agree that a historical Jesus existed and was executed by crucifixion?
It means I accept that there is more to life that just the visible world. I accept the posisblity of a 'prime mover' of some sort.
It means I am in touch with my own inner self.
I believe there is a 'spiritual' side to life. I just don't believe that any of the existing religions have even come close to understanding the true nature of the divine.
I do *not* believe Jesus was the son of God, any more than I believe that David Koresh was.
I disagree.
If a person is educated about astronomy, they are unlikely to believe that an eclipse is the work of angry gods.
People still are gullible, in many ways.
And in the past, they were even more so.
Is this really that controversial a subject???
1) That Jesus lived and was killed, I agree, there is a reasonable chance that is true.
2) The idea that he in fact rose from death, instead of it being either a hoax or misunderstanding, is highly *unlikely*.
It takes a leap of faith to believe that. Which is fine, just don't act like there is evidence to prove it true.
Remember, I have knowledge of many such hucksters thruout history, people have claimed to work miracles over and over again.
Adam and Eve were gullible their progeny still is..
How gullible are you?.. or are you immune?..
I believe the Cowboys have a shot at the Superbowl . . . so you tell me!
A firm separation of faith and reason is an artificial thing, stemming from enlightenment era thinking, especially that of Emanuel Kant. Faith is certainly different than reason but is not (and should not be) separated...they exist in the same realms.
Of course this is evidence for the big bang, but scientific, not historic (historic by definition requires a record of human observation).
As humans we live all the time with assumptions outside of that which can be scientifically proved, which is why it's illogical for people to demand scientific evidence for Jesus, when historical evidence is what they need...and there is loads of it. There is little "scientific" evidence for the existance of Julius Caesar for example--but of course the historic evidince is overwelming...and not to be doubted. The same holds true for Jesus.
I felt the same way when I fell away from the mainstream religions I knew there was a Supreme Being which I respected I did not doubt Jesus existing and I spent many years searching until I was 38 yrs old!
Than I learn the proper way to address my Heavenly Father and in the name of Jesus Christ!
Before for all that I received a powerful witness from the Holy Spirit!
I had never in my life felt such Joy I just had to know more!
The opposition deals in half truths that is why so many are drawn to mainstream for they do on some level feel the spirit but when one tries to answer those questions in the Bible it all seem to fall apart!
Because both Testaments have been tampered with!
Among themselves they will admin that integrity of the Bible is in question, but to those out side the mainstream the OT & NT is infallible.
"Following the Protestant attack on the integrity of the Bible, the Catholic Church infallibly reaffirmed the divine inspiration of the deuterocanonical books at the Council of Trent in 1546. In doing this, it reaffirmed what had been believed since the time of Christ."
All we have to show for 5000 plus written record is 66 Books even the first 5 books of Moses is a recap of what we have of the recap!
The New Testament is like scrambled eggs it is indistinguishable between the Convenants of Moses and the restored Covenant of Abraham, which is called the New Covenant because to those folks it was new to them!
Moses did receive the higher law but the people at the time refuse to embrace it!
There have been serveral dispensations we are living in the last dispensation!
Each time there is a dispensations the Lord had restored His Covenant through his Prophet to the people during those times the power of the priesthood would be on earth again. But than a long the way the people would prosper and become distracted enabling wolves in sheep clothing to entered the gate that would diluted or corrupted the word, and the people would fall into apostasy.
When I say the NT is like scrambled eggs so many good people I have witness can not discern the different between the Covenants.
The Law of Moses or Covenant is the lesser law meaning for Time only or until death do we part! It can not be bound in Heaven!
The Abraham Covenant or restored Doctrine of Jesus Christ is for all Eternity!
In order to do this the Lord's Prophet and the priesthood has to be on the earth to preform these ordinance that is able to bound in the name of the Lord which is done in "The House of the Lord" (temple)
What, the Turin shroud ain't enough for you? ;)
I'm banking on the piece of wood off the cross that constantine's mother, St. Helen, found in Jerusalem. :-)
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