Reversing the Curse

www.monergism.com ^ | Unknown | John Owens

[P-Marlowe]

You cannot isolate one verse of scripture and build a doctrine on it. That's exactly what you're doing here..

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I simply quoted a verse. I didn't comment on it or anything. I just said I believed it and you guys went into hysterics.

I believe the verse. Exactly as it is written. I have no problem with it. I don't need to retranslate it to fit my theology. Do you?

[blue-duncan]

"But if, on the contrary, he be told, what the Scripture teaches, "that he was alienated from God by sin, an heir of wrath, obnoxious to the punishment of eternal death, excluded from all hope of salvation, a total stranger to the Divine blessing, a slave to Satan, a captive under the yoke of sin, and, in a word, condemned to, and already involved in a horrible destruction; that in this situation, Christ interposed as an intercessor; that he has taken upon himself and suffered the punishment which by the righteous judgment of God impended over all sinners; that by his blood he has expiated those crimes which render them odious to God; that by this expiation God the Father has been satisfied and duly atoned; that by this intercessor his wrath has been appeased; that this is the foundation of peace between God and men;" Book 2, Chpt. 16.

Looks like brother Calvin disagrees with brother Sproul.

[P-Marlowe]

Looks like brother Calvin disagrees with brother Sproul.

At first glance.....

but upon closer inspection......

.

.

How's the new Axe?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Dr. Kendall, is that you?

It always amazes me that so many Arminians are so anxious to claim Calvin for their own. I guess that's a step in the right direction.

Christ's atonement was sufficient for all, efficient for the elect. Not one drop of Christ's blood was shed in vain.

And still none of you has answered Owen's question.

As God wills.

Or as Calvin wrote:

"The adoption was put in Abraham's hands. Nevertheless, because many of his descendants were cut off as rotten members, we must, in order that election may be effectual and truly enduring, ascend to the Head, in whom the Heavenly Father has gathered his elect together, and has joined them to himself by an indissoluble bond.

Whence it comes about that the whole world does not belong to its Creator except that grace rescues from God's curse and wrath and eternal death a limited number who would otherwise perish. But the world itself is left to its own destruction, to which it has been destined. Meanwhile, although Christ interposes himself as mediator, he claims for himself, in common with the Father, the right to choose. 'I am not speaking', he says, 'of all; I know whom I have chosen' (John 13: 18). If anyone ask whence he has chosen them, he replies in another passage: 'From the world' (John 15:19), which he excludes from his prayers when he commends his disciples to the Father (John 17:9). This we must believe: when he declares that he knows whom he has chosen, he denotes in the human genus a particular species, distinguished not by the quality of its virtues but by heavenly decree.

Through Isaiah he still more openly shows how he directs the promises of salvation specifically to the elect: for he proclaims that they alone, not the whole human race without distinction, are to become his disciples (Isa. 8:16). Hence it is clear that the doctrine of salvation, which is said to be reserved solely and individually for the sons of the church, is falsely debased when presented as effectually profitable to all."

[blue-duncan]

I thought I answered the question in my reply #8. It looks like maybe brother Calvin was having an off day when he wrote one of the passages. It looks like the passage from Book 2, Chpt 16 was a statement being made to an unsaved person in order to convince him of the efficacy of the atonement for all sin. Of course I might be reading it wrong, my Institutes are old and dogeared.

[NormB]

I don't have a problem resolving this passage with limited atonement at all. What John is talking about is the whole world of people who would accept "it" it being the propitiation. This still means God is sovereign and he chooses who will accept it.

It makes a whole lot more sense than the universalist concept that everyone has an equal chance. This is God here, not Goals 2000!!!

How can everyone have an equal chance when God has already forseen that someone has no chance?!? In the same way his creation of said person is his foreordination. It just makes sense...

[Quester]

Christ did not die in vain for anyone.

How does one support this scripturally ?

And if Christ died for all sins (excluding the unforgivable sin ... let's say) ... is His death necessarily in vain for those who don't receive Him ?

Has not the Father ceded judgement (of men) to the Son ?

Could it not be that the unsaved's refusal to accept Christ's death as a ransom for their sins ... is their ultimate condemnation ?

[nobdysfool]

I just said I believed it and you guys went into hysterics.

Hysterics? Hardly! Apparently you have a different definition for hysterics that the rest of us do. And who is "you guys?"

The thing is, we know what you mean when you say you believe it, and it is all the more obvious by the fact that you still refuse to answer Owen's questions.

I believe the verse. Exactly as it is written. I have no problem with it. I don't need to retranslate it to fit my theology. Do you?

I believe the cerse as it is written, as well. But I also believe other scriptures which modify and expand on the meaning, and explain it in more depth. So, I don't need to retranslate it to fit my theology either. Besides, my theology is not based on what I think, and then trying to find verses that seem to back me up, but on what the Bible as a whole says. I fit my theology to the Word, rather than fitting the Word to my theology. It's much easier that way. Humbling, but easier.

[DoorGunner]

Christ did not die in vain for anyone.

 

(1Jo 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Well, The Bible says that the propitiation is for “the sins of the whole world.” You say “Christ did not die in vain for anyone.” If you mean that not all will accept their propitiation, fine. They will die in their sins.

 

If you mean that such would mean that “Christ…die[d] in vain…” fine.

 

But, if you go on to claim that such COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN, then you are calling the Bible (and Its author, the Holy Spirit) a liar. This is dangerous. [See post #34]

 

Romans 5

⁵and hope ^(J)does not disappoint, because the love of God has been ^(K)poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

[see post #34]

   ⁶For while we were still ^(L)helpless, ^(M)at the right time ^(N)Christ died for the ungodly.

   ⁷For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.

   ⁸But God ^(O)demonstrates ^(P)His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, ^(Q)Christ died for us.

   ¹²Therefore, just as through ^(X)one man sin entered into the world, and ^(Y)death through sin, and ^(Z)so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

[“…because all sinned”]

   ¹⁵But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of ^(AD)the one ^(AE)the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by ^(AF)the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

   ¹⁸So then as through ^(AJ)one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one ^(AK)act of righteousness there resulted ^(AL)justification of life to all men.

[If one asserts that “ALL” means “ALL” in the first half of v 18, logical consistency dictates that “ALL” also means “ALL” in the second half.]

   ¹⁹For as through the one man's disobedience ^(AM)the many ^(AN)were made sinners, even so through ^(AO)the obedience of the One ^(AP)the many will be made righteous.

Consider the possibility that Paul actually meant “the many,” in BOTH halves of v19.

Christ’s death “resulted [in] justification of life to all men.” “Christ died for the ungodly.” And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And yet, “…through ^(AO)the obedience of the One ^(AP)the many will be made righteous.”

Christ died “for the ungodly”…”for the sins of the whole world.” But, not many will be saved: “the many will be made righteous.”

I propose that we accept the Bible at face value. If something in the Bible does not fit our theology, we must change our theology, NOT the Bible.

DG

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A.J.Armitage]

I don't need to retranslate it to fit my theology.

Then why did you?

[Lexinom]

John 0:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.

[DoorGunner]

Matthew 22

Parable of the Marriage Feast

   ¹Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying,

   ²"^(A)The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a ^(B)wedding feast for his son.

   ³"And he ^(C)sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

   ⁴"Again he ^(D)sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'

   ⁵"But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,

   ⁶and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.

   ⁷"But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

   ⁸"Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

   ⁹'Go therefore to ^(E)the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

   ¹⁰"Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

   ¹¹"But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw ^(F)a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

   ¹²and he said to him, '^(G)Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.

   ¹³"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into ^(H)the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

   ¹⁴"For many are ^(I)called, but few are ^(J)chosen."

 

[P-Marlowe]

Now, why does John say, "he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world?" Why does he put that in? Obviously he is drawing a contrast between Christians and non-Christians. He is reminding us that when the Lord Jesus died upon the cross 1900 years ago, he not only paid the debt of our sins, he not only took our guilt, as Christians, but he took the guilt of the whole world. He paid the price for every man. There is no man who will be kept away from God because of his sins, if he accepts the work of Christ on his behalf. Sin can never separate an individual from God, because of the cross of Christ. No matter how bad the sins, no matter how extreme it may be, or how long continued, sin can never separate anybody, anywhere, in any time, or any age, from the heart of God, if the work of the cross be received. That is the extent of the expiation mentioned here. But why does he remind us of that in this context? The answer is: It is to help us see ourselves.

Why is it that all the world is not reconciled to God? Why is it that these others, whose sins have been already settled for on the cross, are living in estrangement and hostility to the God who loves them and who seeks after them? Why is it that men are still defying God, and blaspheming God, and turning and running from him, and experiencing the death, darkness, and degradation that comes from not knowing? You know the answer: Because they will not believe him. They will not accept his forgiveness. He has forgiven them, but they have never forgiven him. As Paul puts it in Second Corinthians 5, "We are ambassadors for Christ, for God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. Therefore, we beseech men, be ye reconciled to God," 2 Corinthians 5:20). We do not have to say to God, "be reconciled to men"; we are saying to men, "be ye reconciled to God," (2 Corinthians 5:20b KJV).

Now, that is the very same reason why we Christians are not enjoying the full flow of the Spirit of power, life, love, and wisdom, in our experience. It is all available to us, but we will not receive it. That is what John means. Like the world, we are turning our back on it. We are saying to God, "I'm not interested in cleansing because, you see, I really don't need it. After all, this is not a sin, it's simply a weakness, just an inherited tendency, something I got from my family. I can't help it." That kind of thing is cutting the ground out from under the whole redemptive work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Though his power is all-available, it is not experienced because of that.

Now let us bow before him. In a moment of quietness before God, let us confess this terrible tendency that each of us has unquestionably experienced, to rationalize sin, to excuse it, justify it, call it something else, doll it up, sprinkle perfume on it and make it look better, instead of calling it exactly what it is. Christ has found a way below, around, and above our circumstances. He can reach us despite the pressures; it is just that we do not want it.

Prayer:

Our Father, in this moment of quietness, search our hearts. We have not come here merely to play at being Christians, we want to really be Christians. We need this probing, searching finger of the Spirit to touch us, and to unveil to us the closeted areas, these closed doors that we have shut away from thee. Make us open, make us to be honest, make us to stop this eternal excusing of ourselves and to face up to the wonderful reality of thy challenge and promise, that nothing can keep us from being what we ought to be, or no one can keep us from it. May we begin to live in that way, a fragrance in Jesus Christ. We pray in His name, Amen.

Ray C. Stedman

[HarleyD]

From John Calvin:

2. And not for ours only. He added this for the sake of amplifying, in order that the faithful might be assured that the expiation made by Christ, extends to all who by faith embrace the gospel.

Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated? I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself. Such a monstrous thing deserves no refutation. They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world.

I certainly wouldn't want to counted as a fanatic.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Read later.

[Revelation 911]

Could it not be that the unsaved's refusal to accept Christ's death as a ransom for their sins ... is their ultimate condemnation ?

excellent !

[HarleyD]

"Doing the will of God is the only way we can do good. Unbelievers cannot purposefully deny themselves and do the will of God (God can use them to do His will despite them)."

I agree. Here is an interesting verse I read the other day in Ecclesiastics:

"...Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives...." Ecc 9:3

One would have to wonder how an unbeliever can do the will of God which begs the question how to translate the meaning of this verse. I would translate it simply to mean the unbelievers cannot help themselves. But how would man, who is full of evil and insanity, make a decision without God stepping in to erase the evil and insanity?

[P-Marlowe]

I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself.

Main Entry:  

exaggeration
Part of Speech:	noun
Definition:	overstatement
Synonyms:	aggrandizement, amplification, baloney, boasting, BS, caricature, cheese, coloring, crap, crock, elaboration, embroidery, emphasis, enlargement, exaltation, excess, extravagance, fabrication, falsehood, fancy, fantasy, fish story, gas, hogwash, hyperbole, inflation, jazz, line, magnification, misjudgment, misrepresentation, overemphasis, overestimation, pretension, pretentiousness, rant, romance, stretch, stretching, tall story, untruth, whopper, yarn

[HarleyD]

Actually I though about this and what Calvin is stating. I think he's correct and there is no exaggeration.

You’re reading the text as our Lord Jesus dying for "the whole world". If this was the correct interpretation then it would beg the question about Satan since he is "the ruler of this world". Please consider:

“…and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.” John 16:11

You’re saying that Christ died for the whole world. Scripture says that Satan is the ruler of this whole world and that he has been judged. This puts you in the same position of saying “whole world” doesn’t really mean WHOLE world.

[P-Marlowe]

You’re saying that Christ died for the whole world. Scripture says that Satan is the ruler of this whole world and that he has been judged. This puts you in the same position of saying “whole world” doesn’t really mean WHOLE world.

BS, cheese, coloring, crap, crock, elaboration, embroidery, excess, extravagance, fabrication, falsehood, fancy, fantasy, fish story, gas, hogwash, hyperbole, inflation, jazz, line, magnification, misjudgment, misrepresentation, overemphasis, overestimation, pretension, pretentiousness, rant, romance, stretch, stretching, tall story, untruth, whopper, yarn

The term "whole world" (as noted here) is in several places in the bible defined as "all men". The "fanatic" will add to the scripture so that the word "all men" is turned into "all sorts of men" or they will subtract from the word of God and turn "all men" into "only the elect."

Christ died for the sins of men. Satan does not have a prayer. And you know that.