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To: Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; nobdysfool; suzyjaruki; HarleyD; NormB
"But if, on the contrary, he be told, what the Scripture teaches, "that he was alienated from God by sin, an heir of wrath, obnoxious to the punishment of eternal death, excluded from all hope of salvation, a total stranger to the Divine blessing, a slave to Satan, a captive under the yoke of sin, and, in a word, condemned to, and already involved in a horrible destruction; that in this situation, Christ interposed as an intercessor; that he has taken upon himself and suffered the punishment which by the righteous judgment of God impended over all sinners; that by his blood he has expiated those crimes which render them odious to God; that by this expiation God the Father has been satisfied and duly atoned; that by this intercessor his wrath has been appeased; that this is the foundation of peace between God and men;" Book 2, Chpt. 16.

Looks like brother Calvin disagrees with brother Sproul.
42 posted on 06/14/2005 7:32:50 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
Looks like brother Calvin disagrees with brother Sproul.

At first glance.....

but upon closer inspection......

.

.

How's the new Axe?

43 posted on 06/14/2005 7:42:18 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: blue-duncan; nobdysfool; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; Frumanchu; Gamecock; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Dr. Kendall, is that you?

It always amazes me that so many Arminians are so anxious to claim Calvin for their own. I guess that's a step in the right direction.

Christ's atonement was sufficient for all, efficient for the elect. Not one drop of Christ's blood was shed in vain.

And still none of you has answered Owen's question.

As God wills.

Or as Calvin wrote:

"The adoption was put in Abraham's hands. Nevertheless, because many of his descendants were cut off as rotten members, we must, in order that election may be effectual and truly enduring, ascend to the Head, in whom the Heavenly Father has gathered his elect together, and has joined them to himself by an indissoluble bond.

Whence it comes about that the whole world does not belong to its Creator except that grace rescues from God's curse and wrath and eternal death a limited number who would otherwise perish. But the world itself is left to its own destruction, to which it has been destined. Meanwhile, although Christ interposes himself as mediator, he claims for himself, in common with the Father, the right to choose. 'I am not speaking', he says, 'of all; I know whom I have chosen' (John 13: 18). If anyone ask whence he has chosen them, he replies in another passage: 'From the world' (John 15:19), which he excludes from his prayers when he commends his disciples to the Father (John 17:9). This we must believe: when he declares that he knows whom he has chosen, he denotes in the human genus a particular species, distinguished not by the quality of its virtues but by heavenly decree.

Through Isaiah he still more openly shows how he directs the promises of salvation specifically to the elect: for he proclaims that they alone, not the whole human race without distinction, are to become his disciples (Isa. 8:16). Hence it is clear that the doctrine of salvation, which is said to be reserved solely and individually for the sons of the church, is falsely debased when presented as effectually profitable to all."

44 posted on 06/14/2005 7:52:25 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; nobdysfool; suzyjaruki; HarleyD; NormB; DoorGunner; xzins; ...
Now, why does John say, "he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world?" Why does he put that in? Obviously he is drawing a contrast between Christians and non-Christians. He is reminding us that when the Lord Jesus died upon the cross 1900 years ago, he not only paid the debt of our sins, he not only took our guilt, as Christians, but he took the guilt of the whole world. He paid the price for every man. There is no man who will be kept away from God because of his sins, if he accepts the work of Christ on his behalf. Sin can never separate an individual from God, because of the cross of Christ. No matter how bad the sins, no matter how extreme it may be, or how long continued, sin can never separate anybody, anywhere, in any time, or any age, from the heart of God, if the work of the cross be received. That is the extent of the expiation mentioned here. But why does he remind us of that in this context? The answer is: It is to help us see ourselves.

Why is it that all the world is not reconciled to God? Why is it that these others, whose sins have been already settled for on the cross, are living in estrangement and hostility to the God who loves them and who seeks after them? Why is it that men are still defying God, and blaspheming God, and turning and running from him, and experiencing the death, darkness, and degradation that comes from not knowing? You know the answer: Because they will not believe him. They will not accept his forgiveness. He has forgiven them, but they have never forgiven him. As Paul puts it in Second Corinthians 5, "We are ambassadors for Christ, for God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. Therefore, we beseech men, be ye reconciled to God," 2 Corinthians 5:20). We do not have to say to God, "be reconciled to men"; we are saying to men, "be ye reconciled to God," (2 Corinthians 5:20b KJV).

Now, that is the very same reason why we Christians are not enjoying the full flow of the Spirit of power, life, love, and wisdom, in our experience. It is all available to us, but we will not receive it. That is what John means. Like the world, we are turning our back on it. We are saying to God, "I'm not interested in cleansing because, you see, I really don't need it. After all, this is not a sin, it's simply a weakness, just an inherited tendency, something I got from my family. I can't help it." That kind of thing is cutting the ground out from under the whole redemptive work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Though his power is all-available, it is not experienced because of that.

Now let us bow before him. In a moment of quietness before God, let us confess this terrible tendency that each of us has unquestionably experienced, to rationalize sin, to excuse it, justify it, call it something else, doll it up, sprinkle perfume on it and make it look better, instead of calling it exactly what it is. Christ has found a way below, around, and above our circumstances. He can reach us despite the pressures; it is just that we do not want it.

Prayer:

Our Father, in this moment of quietness, search our hearts. We have not come here merely to play at being Christians, we want to really be Christians. We need this probing, searching finger of the Spirit to touch us, and to unveil to us the closeted areas, these closed doors that we have shut away from thee. Make us open, make us to be honest, make us to stop this eternal excusing of ourselves and to face up to the wonderful reality of thy challenge and promise, that nothing can keep us from being what we ought to be, or no one can keep us from it. May we begin to live in that way, a fragrance in Jesus Christ. We pray in His name, Amen.

Ray C. Stedman


53 posted on 06/14/2005 10:56:09 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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