Posted on 09/25/2003 9:18:42 AM PDT by Greg Luzinski
"Roma locuta, Causa Finita"-
"Rome has Spoken, the Case is Closed"-
St. Augustine, Fourth Century A.D.
Jerome also taught that the apocryphal books should not form a part of the canon. Why is Jerome wrong there but right in addressing Helvidius?Besides, Jerome's argument doesn't stand up when it is examined closely -- Mary and Joseph were truly husband and wife, not putatively, as Jerome argues. And the old "Jesus' brother and sisters were really his cousins" argument is specious, too, not only because of the scriptures, but because of contemporaneous church and secular documents which, for example, describe James as the physical half-brother of Jesus.
The problem is that Catholics want to claim that all of what they call apostolic teaching was held by every generation yet they do not wish to prove that all of what they call apostolic teaching was held by every generation, especially the early church.
They were Christian. I'll provide answers to you this evening -- my lunch is over.
I have a huge set of the writings of the Fathers, and they all believe in what the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church believe in to this day. James White, an anti-Catholic apologist, has wrenched some texts out of context and tried to "prove" what you seem to be saying. But he failed miserably, especially if you have access to the Fathers writings and can see the proper context, their other writings, etc.
It certainly can.
Can you point me to a single tradition from the early Apostolic church that states it?
It depends on how you wish to define "early Apostolic church."
The surest way to assess the beliefs of early Christians is their liturgical and devotional practice.
The Dormition is one of the oldest feasts of the Church and no one ever claimed to have physical relics of Our Lady - which many places certainly would have if they believed that she had been buried like a normal person.
How about papal infallibility?
There is a well established Scriptural argument for this teaching as well.
Are you aware that it resulted from a church dispute less than 1,000 years ago and that initially the papacy rejected it (until it was decided that it might be convenient on occasion)?
This is the most deceptive distortion of the history of this doctrine I have read recently. Congratulations, I guess.
None of that disproves the ancient belief among Christians in Purgatory, the Papacy, etc. As far as the Inquistion goes, yeah, not our best moment. But the destruction of monasteries and church properties, and the burning of "witches", doesn't exactly put Protestantism at it's infancy in the very best light either.
Whether or not you testify to their "swellness", you can't erase their truth.
And then there's that ugly thing called the inquisition; shhhh - be vewy vewy quiet - I'm hunting pwotestants.
The Inquisition wasn't in the business of hunting anyone, let alone Protestants. Especially since the Spanish Inquisition was founded 40 years before Martin Luther put up his flyer.
And, at one time, weren't there actually three Popes (one in France, one in Italy, and one appointed by another council)?
No, there was one legitimately elected Pope and two pretenders to the office.
Compared to the policies and judicial processes of the Protestant kingdoms, the Spanish Inquisition was a shining exemplar. Catholics are always too quick to accept the Protestant version of history on this matter.
How do you explain this passage:
Matthew 23
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.
Matthew 23:1-3
You'd see it in the Bible if you weren't using Luther's abridged version. By what authority did Martin "Bible Alone" Luther remove five books from the Bible?
Jerome believed that the deuterocanonical books did not deserve the same prominence as the protocanonicals. He was overruled by his ordinary, and he presented a translation of them for liturgical use.
Besides, Jerome's argument doesn't stand up when it is examined closely -- Mary and Joseph were truly husband and wife, not putatively, as Jerome argues.
Jerome made his case from the same Gospels you have in front of you and he drew a different conclusion than the one you assert.
And the old "Jesus' brother and sisters were really his cousins" argument is specious, too, not only because of the scriptures, but because of contemporaneous church and secular documents which, for example, describe James as the physical half-brother of Jesus.
No secular documents exist naming James as the "physical" half-brother of the Lord.
No "church" documents exist which attest this physical link either.
The problem is that Catholics want to claim that all of what they call apostolic teaching was held by every generation yet they do not wish to prove that all of what they call apostolic teaching was held by every generation, especially the early church.
Teachings are rarely defended until they are challenged. It is incumbent upon those who deny orthodox doctrines to demonstrate that such notions that Our Lady was not a perpetual virgin was widely-held in the Apostolic era.
The point of view that the Church which emerged from persecution in the early 300s was a radically different in its beliefs from the Church which preceded it is not readily defensible.
Side note: I've just recently jettisoned the notion of sola scriptura and am considering converting to Eastern Orthodox (after fifteen years as non-denominational Protestant type).
Well, when men like Polycarp, Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch profess belief in Jesus' real presence in the Eucharist, in Mary as Mother of God, and other doctrines, it makes me take notice. Especially since every one of these men knew some of the Apostles, and Polycarp was the disciple of John the Evangelist. I was a Protestant when I first encountered Christ. It was through the Fathers that I came to see that Christ's Church in primitive times believed what the historical Churchs of East and West believe, and that's why I'm a Catholic today.
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