Posted on 09/25/2003 9:18:42 AM PDT by Greg Luzinski
Look at Peter, the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. (_Homilies on Exodus_ 5:4).
So Origen calls Peter "The Rock" elsewhere. The Fathers, like most commentators, can see one more than meaning to a text of scripture. Of course, Christ is the ultimate Rock, but that doesn't mean that Peter isn't also the Rock in a different sense. It's like a general who leaves another officer in command while he's gone. The general still has full authority, but the officer in command also has high rank and responsibility, and can speak for the general when he has to.
Anyway, I do have to leave. But I will dig that quote out of the actual book from Athanasius; hopefully, I can locate my copy. ;)
No prob. This is a conversation, not a contest, right? Have a great evening.
Yes! I'm jumping up and down. One of my big points all through this thread is that the Catholic Church is based solely upon the teachings of the modern Magisterium. Scripture and tradition really don't matter because they both mean only what the Magisterium says they mean.Given the corruption that has reigned in Rome for much of the last two millennia, I don't view Protestants as having left the Church so much as the Church having left Rome.If you remember the old Calvin & Hobbes cartoon, Calvin often played a game called Calvinball, where he made up the rules as he went along -- and always won. The Magisterium plays the theological equivalent of Calvinball. No matter how much scripture or tradition you can find that obviously debunks a Catholic teaching, the Magisterium has defined the rules so that they always win.
I'm doing the wave! It was gross Simony and the selling of indulgences that brought on the Reformation. Yet one poster on this thread (I can't remember whether it was "Clinton's a commie," so I'll give him a break here) insisted that the Catholic church has always prohibited the selling of "spiritual goods." I don't see how anyone can write that with a straight face.
Enjoy!
Yep. I used to get in these debates a lot, but I got burned out chasing a goal line that was always being shifted just a few feet more. (Evolutionists, by the way, do the same thing.)
Of course, pretty much everyone does the same when it's their religion/worldview at stake. The average Catholic is simply repeating what they've been taught--as is the average Protestant or Evangelical or evolutionist. Very few on any side have done their own research, other than finding a site that happens to agree with them that they can link to. My goal these days is not to "win" the debate, which rarely changes minds, but to encourage people to question their authorities and do their own research to see if what they've been taught is really true, in accordance with Acts 17:11.
I don't see how anyone can write that with a straight face.
Again, it goes back to trusting what you've been told. Now, I'm quite sure that the RCC did indeed write official bulls condemning selling indulgences at various points of its history . . . but that didn't stop them from accepting the money Tetzel made from such sales and using it to build St. Peter's Basillica, did it?
To be fair, the RCC and its Eastern counterpart have done some good in the world, especially when it comes to having preserved history and literature through the Dark Ages. But when Pope John Paul II himself has acknowledged that the RCC has some grave sins in its past (though he was politically non-committal about what he thought those sins might be), it's a bit disingenuous for the individual followers to try to find cop-outs for every single historical example, whether we're talking about the sale of indulgences, the Inquisition, the Reign of the Harlots, preventing the Bible from getting into the hands of the common folk, the persecution of Protestants, or whatever.
Either the Roman Catholic Church is truly one ecclesiastical body, as Catholics hold when they condemn Protestants for being denominationalized--in which case it is collectively guilty of all of the above and more, and needs to admit that it is not without error--or it's as fragmented as the Protestant Church and so can distance itself from the above sins--in which case no Catholic should ever again complain about the number of Protestant denominations.
They can't have it both ways, and I'd really wish that they'd pick one and stick to it.
Yes, and a friendly one at that, but I really was thrilled at your posts.
1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: "The gateway of the inner court that faces toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. 2The prince shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway from the outside, and stand by the gatepost. The priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings. He shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening. 3Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the entrance to this gateway before the LORD on the Sabbaths and the New Moons. 4The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish; 5and the grain offering shall be one ephah for a ram, and the grain offering for the lambs, as much as he wants to give, as well as a hin of oil with every ephah. 6On the day of the New Moon it shall be a young bull without blemish, six lambs, and a ram; they shall be without blemish. 7He shall prepare a grain offering of an ephah for a bull, an ephah for a ram, as much as he wants to give for the lambs, and a hin of oil with every ephah. 8When the prince enters, he shall go in by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.
9"But when the people of the land come before the LORD on the appointed feast days, whoever enters by way of the north gate to worship shall go out by way of the south gate; and whoever enters by way of the south gate shall go out by way of the north gate. He shall not return by way of the gate through which he came, but shall go out through the opposite gate. 10The prince shall then be in their midst. When they go in, he shall go in; and when they go out, he shall go out. 11At the festivals and the appointed feast days the grain offering shall be an ephah for a bull, an ephah for a ram, as much as he wants to give for the lambs, and a hin of oil with every ephah.
12"Now when the prince makes a voluntary burnt offering or voluntary peace offering to the LORD, the gate that faces toward the east shall then be opened for him; and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he did on the Sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and after he goes out the gate shall be shut.
13"You shall daily make a burnt offering to the LORD of a lamb of the first year without blemish; you shall prepare it every morning. 14And you shall prepare a grain offering with it every morning, a sixth of an ephah, and a third of a hin of oil to moisten the fine flour. This grain offering is a perpetual ordinance, to be made regularly to the LORD. 15Thus they shall prepare the lamb, the grain offering, and the oil, as a regular burnt offering every morning."
The Prince and Inheritance Laws
16 "Thus says the Lord GOD: "If the prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance. 17But if he gives a gift of some of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his until the year of liberty, after which it shall return to the prince. But his inheritance shall belong to his sons; it shall become theirs. 18Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people's inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of My people may be scattered from his property.""'
How the Offerings Were Prepared
19 Now he brought me through the entrance, which was at the side of the gate, into the holy chambers of the priests which face toward the north; and there a place was situated at their extreme western end. 20And he said to me, "This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, and where they shall bake the grain offering, so that they do not bring them out into the outer court to sanctify the people."
21Then he brought me out into the outer court and caused me to pass by the four corners of the court; and in fact, in every corner of the court there was another court. 22In the four corners of the court were enclosed courts, forty cubits long and thirty wide; all four corners were the same size. 23There was a row of building stones all around in them, all around the four of them; and cooking hearths were made under the rows of stones all around. 24And he said to me, "These are the kitchens where the ministers of the temple shall boil the sacrifices of the people."
Also, if I said anything offensive or rude in the heat of the moment the other night, I apologize. The most important thing is that we all have faith in Christ, and that is a lot to have in common in this day and age.
You were a perfect gentleman and have nothing to apologize about. Please accept my apologies if I got too heated in the debate.We'll meet 50 years from now (I'm assuming that I won't live past age 93) and discuss things at our leisure in green pastures beside the still waters. I'll bring the wine -- or the grape juice if the Baptists end up being right.
That was definitely the best chuckle of the day. Thanks!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.