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Libertarians Join Liberals in Challenging Sodomy Law
NYTimes ^ | March 19, 2003 | LINDA GREENHOUSE

Posted on 03/19/2003 12:48:02 AM PST by RJCogburn

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To: The Green Goblin; steve-b
Great point!

God's inability to "perform" logical impossibilities is not a defect in God, but rather a perfection.

561 posted on 03/21/2003 11:18:51 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
That's true with appeals to revelation alone, although it is possible to determine whether divine revelation contradicts reason. Nevertheless, arguments based on reason alone, proceeding from First Principles, such as "the good is to be done and evil avoided," are knowable by all with at least moral certainty.

And utterly immaterial as to whether you know God better than I do.

562 posted on 03/21/2003 11:20:03 AM PST by jimt
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To: Aquinasfan
Really?

Really.

563 posted on 03/21/2003 11:21:30 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Aquinasfan
God's inability to "perform" logical impossibilities is not a defect in God, but rather a perfection.

Great, then it's perfectly logical that God ordering his followers to kill children is an example of moral relativism.

564 posted on 03/21/2003 11:28:55 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: The Green Goblin
Where does "society" come from?

Society is a collection of individuals which should be ordered toward the common good (defense, commerce, worship, etc.) Society is inevitable and spontaneous wherever two or more people are gathered together. Man never exists outside of society for his entire life and normally exists within society. Men may exist in good or bad societies, but living extra-societally is pretty much impossible.

Is society binding on everyone? If so, why?

This is a nonsensical question. Can you rephrase it?

By what authority does society impose its idea of "rights" on individuals?

The object of law is the common good or the common welfare (as in the Constitution). The welfare of the society is of more importance than the welfare of one individual inasmuch as the whole is greater than its parts. This stands to reason since sometimes individual lives must be sacrificed for the greater good, as in war.

Aquinas on the Essence of Law

565 posted on 03/21/2003 12:07:12 PM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Therefore, private revelation must be treated with skepticism and must conform to Biblical revelation.

I'm glad that you agree that the alleged "revelation" to commit genocide should have been rejected as the voice of psychosis, since authorization for it was obviously was not to be found in any holy writings at the time.

566 posted on 03/21/2003 12:28:32 PM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
The welfare of the society is of more importance than the welfare of one individual inasmuch as the whole is greater than its parts.

The whole may be numerically "greater" than the parts, but that in itself gives it no moral precedence over the individual.

567 posted on 03/21/2003 12:28:43 PM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: Aquinasfan
True freedom rests in the freedom to do God's will.

How Marcuseian.

568 posted on 03/21/2003 12:31:36 PM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
Is society binding on everyone? If so, why?

This is a nonsensical question. Can you rephrase it?

What authority does society have to force an individual to conform to its wishes? If three men wish to rob one man, do their greater numbers make their actions moral? I think not...

569 posted on 03/21/2003 12:33:07 PM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: Aquinasfan
We can also speculate that God had nothing to do with it, and that the Israelites were trying to dress up a horrific act by saying "God made me do it".
You can, and many people do, but I don't find the argument compelling.

Why ever not? There are many precedents on both the individual and the national levels of obvious moral atrocities being justified as "God's Will".

One might entertain the possibility that a nation that committed an atrocious act that was against its own desires and interest had been motivated by the sincere belief that God had commanded it. Taking over a neighboring tribe's land clearly does not meet that condition.

570 posted on 03/21/2003 12:34:34 PM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
Are you talking political "rights" or natural rights?

It doesn't matter which. Unless there is some sort of right to do harm to oneself, then there is no right to put any consideration ahead of one's own physical safety.

571 posted on 03/21/2003 12:36:21 PM PST by steve-b
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To: RJCogburn
What exactly have libertarians gotten for supporting homosexuals' right to proselytize? Answer: a bunch of liberty-hating, anti-gun wannabe "pink fascists."
572 posted on 03/21/2003 12:38:32 PM PST by Wavyhill
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To: Wavyhill
What exactly have libertarians gotten for supporting homosexuals' right to proselytize?

I haven't seen anyone talk about that, but lets look at it.

The first amendment, are you against it?

573 posted on 03/21/2003 1:13:09 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: Protagoras
The First Amendment does not give the right to speech involved in a conspiracy to commit felonies. "Intergenerational sex," as the homosexuals call it, is a felony, as well as an evil abomination.
574 posted on 03/21/2003 1:15:22 PM PST by Wavyhill
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To: Wavyhill
LOL, nice stretch.

You talked about proyestizing homosexuality, now you talk about rape.

So what kind of talk does the first amendment allow about homosexuality? (in your mind)

575 posted on 03/21/2003 1:26:05 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: Protagoras
It allows people to discuss the matter. It does not allow homosexuals to recruit underage boys, as they all too often do.
576 posted on 03/21/2003 1:30:19 PM PST by Wavyhill
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To: Wavyhill
It does not allow homosexuals to recruit underage boys.

Recruit? Explain precisely. You mean personally proposition underage males?

577 posted on 03/21/2003 1:32:46 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: Protagoras
Either directly or indirectly, yes.
578 posted on 03/21/2003 1:33:37 PM PST by Wavyhill
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To: Wavyhill
Either directly or indirectly, yes.

Explain the indirectly part.

579 posted on 03/22/2003 11:42:50 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: steve-b
God "could" have done whatever he wanted. It did not fit His ends, and His greater glory, to just "make them up and leave." We don't know all the answers. God's ways are not our own.
580 posted on 03/23/2003 8:28:33 PM PST by Zack Nguyen
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