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Libertarians Join Liberals in Challenging Sodomy Law
NYTimes ^ | March 19, 2003 | LINDA GREENHOUSE

Posted on 03/19/2003 12:48:02 AM PST by RJCogburn

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To: jimt
He has a right to harm himself.

?!

God obviously intended that he have that capability.

Man has the capability to do many evil things. Does that mean that he has a right to do evil things? I don't think that defense will hold up on the judgement day.

521 posted on 03/21/2003 8:07:34 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Zack Nguyen
Had He not ordered the extermination of all of those people, consider the consequences:
1. Israel would have failed to settle the land God had given them, because those nations would never have left voluntarily.

God couldn't make them decide to just up and leave? You must be consulting the definition of the word "omnipotent" found in the Clinton Dictionary.

2. To stave off any possibility of Israel being influenced by foreign pagan nations to stray from following the one true God.

God was less convincing to His chosen people than a bunch of defeated (though not exterminated, if God has been sufficiently moral to instruct His people in the basic concepts of of Just War doctrine) pagans?

This sort of order, of course, counted only for the chosen nation of Israel at that time.

God is a moral relativist?

Remember also that we are owned by God, every one of us. He can take me off this earth, or any memebr of my family, in a moment if He so chooses. All the world belongs to Him.

So much for our nosiness in saying dreadful things about the way (for example) Saddam Hussein treated the people under his rule.

522 posted on 03/21/2003 8:10:33 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Dataman
All unnatural activity

Examples of "unnatural activity": jumping out a window and flying like Superman, walking through a wall without damage to either yourself or the wall, becoming invisible at will, etc. I haven't noticed any of these being terribly pressing social problems.

523 posted on 03/21/2003 8:12:42 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
Man has the capability to do many evil things. Does that mean that he has a right to do evil things? I don't think that defense will hold up on the judgement day.

When he's doing the "evil things" to himself or a consenting adult and violating no one's rights, yes he does have a right to do "evil things".

God will take care of judgement day.

524 posted on 03/21/2003 8:15:20 AM PST by jimt
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To: The Green Goblin
God is accountable to the laws of logic

I wonder how Aquinasfan would deal with this, given that Aquinas agreed that it was impossible for God to create (for example) a triangle with internal angles that did not add to the sum of two right angles (assuming that we are drawing our triangles on a Euclidean plane).

525 posted on 03/21/2003 8:16:03 AM PST by steve-b
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To: jimt
I'll rephrase - what makes your idea of God's will more accurate than mine?

Because it derives from First Principles which can be known with certainty.

526 posted on 03/21/2003 8:17:56 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Why did God also require the killing of the Canaanite children?....However, we can speculate, and it is possible that these children would have gone on to commit the crimes of their parents.

We can also speculate that God had nothing to do with it, and that the Israelites were trying to dress up a horrific act by saying "God made me do it".

You can put a tuxedo on a pig but it's still a pig.

527 posted on 03/21/2003 8:18:51 AM PST by jimt
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To: Protagoras
You made something up and then pretend I said it

I'll search through the posts when I have time and I'll give you the number.

528 posted on 03/21/2003 8:20:53 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Because it derives from First Principles which can be known with certainty.

Come again?

Your idea of God derives from first principles? It sounds more to me like unquestioning belief in the Bible. "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it."

Not so?

529 posted on 03/21/2003 8:21:02 AM PST by jimt
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To: Protagoras
The correct interpretation is that he told these people to focus on important things, that they need to look past this world and it's problems and focus on God and the kingdom to come.

He didn't tell the soldiers to put down their swords, did He? He told them to be content with their pay and to refrain from corrupt practices. Clearly He accepted the role of the military.

530 posted on 03/21/2003 8:24:05 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Why does he have a "right" to harm himself?

Because someone with no right to harm himself has no option but to live life hidden under the bed, emerging for only just long enough to eat (the blandest and most non-fattening possible food) and perform other such absolute necessities.

531 posted on 03/21/2003 8:25:58 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Protagoras
Me, and many,many others, but I never represented it as anything other than my opinion.

So why should anyone care?

I would care if the statement was true.

You took it out if the context of the exchange I was having and tried to make it look like I was making an unattributed doctrine of some authority.

No, I was trying to elicit the answer you provided above.

532 posted on 03/21/2003 8:26:52 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Protagoras
You are the Aquinas fan, not me.

Yes, and you are a fan of Protagoras.

Post that to someone who cares about it.

Are you interested in the truth, or simply in endless debate? Perhaps your namesake provides the answer.

533 posted on 03/21/2003 8:28:32 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
My pursuit of happiness violates yours when something I do directly stops you from pursuing yours.
This is simple utilitarianism, which is a simply idiotic philosophical system.

This is such obvious nonsense as to expose the stupidity of the advocate. Under a utilitarian system, if stealing from you makes you very happy, but losing your stuff to a thief makes you only somewhat annoyed, the theft is good because it increases the net amount of happiness in the world. Under a libertarian system, the theft is evil because it violates the rights of the victim (no matter how little he might care, so long as he does not care so little as to actually consent to it).

534 posted on 03/21/2003 8:35:28 AM PST by steve-b
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To: The Green Goblin
Your argument does nothing to refute the fact that infanticide is sometimes morally justifiable according to God

The creator of a painting has the natural right to destroy it. The creation belongs to the creator, by definition. Analogously, the Creator of life has the right to take life away.

Keep in mind though that, although God has the right to destroy His Creation, he does not destroy human beings. In fact, he is merciful to us, in that when our earthly life is ended we have the opportunity to live with Him forever in eternal bliss. God also honors the choice of people who choose not to live with Him forever. Therefore, it's possible that many of the Canaanite children that were killed went on to a greater life.

535 posted on 03/21/2003 8:36:44 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Why did God also require the killing of the Canaanite children?

If God wanted the Canaanite children dead, He should have killed them Himself. To convey instructions to others to undertake the sin on His behalf is both immoral and downright idiotic (when someone hears the "voice of God" commanding him to kill, the sensible interpretation is not to assume that God has commanded a murder, but to diagnose the person hearing the voice as a dangerous psychotic).

536 posted on 03/21/2003 8:38:31 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
Irrelevant analogy. A painting is an inanimate object. A person is an end in himself, not a means to an end. By your reasoning, infanticide by parents is perfectly justified.
537 posted on 03/21/2003 8:40:38 AM PST by steve-b
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To: steve-b
God told me that your arguments are all worthless sophistry. Since His ways are above our ways and His Mind is unsearchable,

We cannot know God positively, in Himself. However, we can know what God is not and can therefore know certain things about God through natural reason, such as the fact that He is One, Good, True, Beautiful and Being. God is of an entirely different category than human beings, and as such, we can only express truths about Him by anaology or negatively. Nevertheless, the knowledge is certain.

We can also know God through revelation.

538 posted on 03/21/2003 8:44:03 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: jimt
When he's doing the "evil things" to himself or a consenting adult and violating no one's rights

His own right to life, obviously. And of course, all sin hurts others. No man is an island.

You seem to have accepted, at least to some degree, the prevalent equation of freedom with license. True freedom rests in the freedom to do God's will. Slavery to sin is just that, and is the opposite of human freedom.

539 posted on 03/21/2003 8:52:10 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: jimt
We can also speculate that God had nothing to do with it, and that the Israelites were trying to dress up a horrific act by saying "God made me do it".

You can, and many people do, but I don't find the argument compelling.

540 posted on 03/21/2003 8:54:24 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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