MCSEs: We are all idiots

Myelabs.com ^ | 11/5/01 11:44:36 AM | Editorial Staff

[Justa]

[relee]

So, are you Linux certified yet?

[RLK]

I don't know what to tell you in less tha 15 pages.

[ikka]

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

[Britton J Wingfield]

Luckily I have my A+ certification, so the world is my oyster!

[JRandomFreeper]

When you telephone interview a unix geek, and hear typing in the background, he's reading man pages. Give him an A for effort, and a C for knowledge.

/john

[Brookhaven]

Here's some advice based on my previous life as a systems programmer.

Learn SQL and database systems.

Most major business applications are somehow involved with a database. The various hot languages and applications come and go, but databases live on. 20 years ago there was a big demand for database experts, today there is a demand for database experts, and for as far as anyone can see there will be a demand for database experts.

Different database systems often have their own host language, but almost all of them can be accessed via SQL. Its a default language, and you're expected to know it if you are working with databases.

[ikka]

Different database systems often have their own host language, but almost all of them can be accessed via SQL. Its a default language, and you're expected to know it if you are working with databases.

That IS good advice. I know that an MCSE is not for me (I do Linux and OpenBSD as much as I can). I have found that the ability to do SQL has really paid off in my consulting. I do some database work as part of ZillNet and it is a distinct advantage.

[Bush2000]

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

It depends primarily upon who you're working with. Despite what Justa says (and since his focus is Linux, I'd take his comments with a serious grain of salt), there are a number of companies that require a MCSE. But a certain number are balking at paying the bill for MCSE certification -- not because it isn't worthwhile but -- because there are a large number of MCSEs already in the job pool and they can presumably save money on training costs. Bottom line: A better bet is a BSCS/MSCS degree. But if you want to learn the technologies, a MCSE is a good way to go. At least it has breadth.

Linux certification?!? What the hell is that?!?

[JRandomFreeper]

Linux certification is a trial by fire involving dead chickens, bondage, and high-explosives. If you survive, you are either certified or certifiable.

I believe that FR is running on a Linux system/systems. I understand JohnRob is quite certified at this point. Especially after this morning. GRIN!

/john

[Justa]

I'm working with Linux now. I won't be ready for any certification until atleast the Spring and I also want to know which distro wins the Desktop race to divert a respectable portion of Windows users to Linux.

Companies just don't have the time and money now to retrain employees on Linux. Imo when a stable Linux distro maps closely to '98 and supports legacy DOS programs a lot of companies will switch over. Linux Needs one distro to divert the '98/XP user stream, then *Nixers can quabble over which Linux distro. is 'the best'. Currently, I'm betting on Mandrake will get there first, and I dual boot 8.1 alongside '98 and XPpro.

Studying Linux is like choosing to learn DOS or NT4 -or both. Imo, one should learn both the language and the GUI so he can troubleshoot the GUI. At this time which Linux Distro to follow is still highly debatable. Here's a good rundown on the distros.

Right now I have A+, MCP2000 and Network+ and stil can't get a job locally in the field. Two weeks ago I lost out on a great job to an MCSE because they were migrating from NT4 to 2000. They kept asking if I'd be willing to get the MCSE and I said 'no way, not interested' because of many of the reasons cited in the article. Jeeze, if I'd known they had an MCSE in line I would have told them 'why MCSEs suck'. Famous quotes from MCSEs: "You can't run 2000 Server over Cat3, you'll have to rewire [a 6-building site]" and "the first thing you have to do is install [enter multi-thousand $$$ hardware and MS products here]".

MCSEs are not trained as managers of MS products as much as they are trained as marketers of MS products.

[Not_Who_U_Think]

1. He sounds like an unemployed MCSE to me.

2. Contrary to his point about 4 year degrees, (and I have one) many CS grads I've met don't know beans about computers. In one instance, a Computer Science grad pointed to a memory stick inside a PC I was working on and asked what it was. He then asked me to point out the processor. I spent over a year in a CS program before I realized it would be my senior year before I gained any knowledge of current languages or systems. I tremendous waste of time in my opinion - go for the business degree instead.

3. I've spent four years working in the IT field after having a hobbyist interest for more than ten. My MCSE wasn't worth much in the beginning, and I would have been shocked to have any employer turn me loose on their network without oversight. But I knew enough of the basics to ask the right questions and my skill level has grown with experience. Today, I make a very good living and work doing something I love to do.

4. There are good schools and bad schools. Its up to the student to make a wise choice. There's also been a lot of hype about what a new MCSE will make. Sure, there have been people who got the cert and talked their way into a sixty grand job, but for most 40k is more like it as a starting point. When you consider what a four year degree would cost , versus an eight week training course plus the year of studying and testing it takes the average MCSE student to obtain certification, I'd say its a pretty darn good return on your money. I've invested close to $10,000 in training, and it was the best money I've ever spent.

5. There may be a better way to build a competent work force, but I can't think of one. My Dad went to night school back in the 50's in order to get a better job in the machine shop. Later, his friends came to him and basically said, "If you'll get me a job in the shop I'll go to school." His reply was that they should make the investment in training and then look for the payoff. That's the same thing most new MCSE's do, and as a result the IT industry a pool of trainable, motivated people ready for entry level networking jobs.

[a_Turk]

Some additional cheery numbers:

Hey, no fair!

Dude. This too shall pass. Soon there'll be plenty of work in fallout cleanup.

Enjoy the lull.

[JRandomFreeper]

Linux has a gui? Oh, X-windows/KDE/whatever. Real unix is using VI to peruse core dumps. Slackware is the best distro. It contains it's own evolutionary parsing routine. GRIN!

/john

[StockAyatollah]

I spent over a year in a CS program before I realized it would be my senior year before I gained any knowledge of current languages or systems. I tremendous waste of time in my opinion - go for the business degree instead.

You either went to a bad school or had way too much fun ;>) I say get an real engineering degree - CE or EE. Then go for a master's in software engineering. So you can call yourself a software engineer and mean it. Then again most EEs write horrific code.

[Philip_the_evangelist]

Linux certification is a trial by fire involving dead chickens, bondage, and high-explosives.

Actually, Linux certification is by professional instruction at an Accredited Center of Education followed by testing through Prometric or VUE.

[ledzep75]

I remember hearing that there were more than 1 million unfilled IT jobs in 2000 (probably just IT certification company's propaganda) If we send all of the HB1/H1B or whatever visa people back to their own country! How many MCSE's or other IT professionals do you think would be more than willing to take those jobs?

Hell, I'm willing to take one of those jobs that only Mexicans will do that Americans won't do.

[Philip_the_evangelist]

Linux has a gui? Oh, X-windows/KDE/whatever. Real unix is using VI to peruse core dumps.

You're right, we wouldn't want UNIX users to have to deal with KDE or GNOME. It just wouldn't be right.

[Justin Thyme]

Could be worse....you could be a CNE!! Talk about a dinasaur in the IT field.

To answer typical questions, your particular job will determine whether the MCSE (or other appropriate certification) is worth it.

If you are looking for a new job....companies look for one of two types of guys. Some experience, without cert., or certified with minimal experience for more entry level positions. And certified with experience for mid to higher level positions. Other skills such as writing, program management, project management can also greatly affect job opportunities, as well as compensation. Some companies favor veterans.

In short, it varies greatly. But all other things being equal, the person with a cert will get the job over someone without, so it is ultimately in your best interest to get some type of relevant cert.

Good luck to all!

[JRandomFreeper]

I shoulda used the < /sarcasm> tag. Sorry.

I work Solaris admin in the slave-hold, but use Linux on my free-hold. The Wife is a Novell/Microsloth admin/user. As one who hires and fires, I don't care about certifications. I want to know what you really know about real situations that cost me money. Certifications were supposed to do that. They don't. I'll stick with my sit-'em-down and tell them to type

rm -r /

and see how much they flinch. GRIN!

/john