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Here's some advice based on my previous life as a systems programmer.

Learn SQL and database systems.

Most major business applications are somehow involved with a database. The various hot languages and applications come and go, but databases live on. 20 years ago there was a big demand for database experts, today there is a demand for database experts, and for as far as anyone can see there will be a demand for database experts.

Different database systems often have their own host language, but almost all of them can be accessed via SQL. Its a default language, and you're expected to know it if you are working with databases.

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

It depends primarily upon who you're working with. Despite what Justa says (and since his focus is Linux, I'd take his comments with a serious grain of salt), there are a number of companies that require a MCSE. But a certain number are balking at paying the bill for MCSE certification -- not because it isn't worthwhile but -- because there are a large number of MCSEs already in the job pool and they can presumably save money on training costs. Bottom line: A better bet is a BSCS/MSCS degree. But if you want to learn the technologies, a MCSE is a good way to go. At least it has breadth.

Linux certification?!? What the hell is that?!?

1. He sounds like an unemployed MCSE to me.

2. Contrary to his point about 4 year degrees, (and I have one) many CS grads I've met don't know beans about computers. In one instance, a Computer Science grad pointed to a memory stick inside a PC I was working on and asked what it was. He then asked me to point out the processor. I spent over a year in a CS program before I realized it would be my senior year before I gained any knowledge of current languages or systems. I tremendous waste of time in my opinion - go for the business degree instead.

3. I've spent four years working in the IT field after having a hobbyist interest for more than ten. My MCSE wasn't worth much in the beginning, and I would have been shocked to have any employer turn me loose on their network without oversight. But I knew enough of the basics to ask the right questions and my skill level has grown with experience. Today, I make a very good living and work doing something I love to do.

4. There are good schools and bad schools. Its up to the student to make a wise choice. There's also been a lot of hype about what a new MCSE will make. Sure, there have been people who got the cert and talked their way into a sixty grand job, but for most 40k is more like it as a starting point. When you consider what a four year degree would cost , versus an eight week training course plus the year of studying and testing it takes the average MCSE student to obtain certification, I'd say its a pretty darn good return on your money. I've invested close to $10,000 in training, and it was the best money I've ever spent.

5. There may be a better way to build a competent work force, but I can't think of one. My Dad went to night school back in the 50's in order to get a better job in the machine shop. Later, his friends came to him and basically said, "If you'll get me a job in the shop I'll go to school." His reply was that they should make the investment in training and then look for the payoff. That's the same thing most new MCSE's do, and as a result the IT industry a pool of trainable, motivated people ready for entry level networking jobs.

I got my MCSE certification in 1996. That was when it was split up between 4 required courses, and two electives, with about 5 electives to choose from. I chose IP, and Windows networking as my electives. I took NT Workstation, Server, Win 95, and WFW 3.11 (yes Win 3.11 was a required course as late as 96--go figure, huh?) which were required. I kept the test, and have gone back to it over the years, and so far I have run into maybe 3 things that were covered by the test, and perhaps 10 that was covered in the course material. In short, the certification that guarantees anyone that I know my stuff about MS Products did NOTHING to prepare me for real world scenarios. I can remember my first call as a MCSE was to set up a network printer on an NT 4.0 network. Didn't have a clue. The course material didn't even cover such a basic task as that. I figured it out on my own as I have with almost every other thing I have had to know. The course material was utterly useless. The only good thing I can say that I got out of being an MCSE is access to MS's tech net site, which has been quite useful over the years. Basically the certifications are what I feel is just another profit center for MS. Anyone competent in networking can figure out almost anything they need to know in NT, and it's even easier in Win 2K. Basically, if you think the certification will get you more money, do it, but don't do it for "personal enrichment", as I have learned that the courses are useless in an everyday environment.

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

I'm a 'Certified Java Programmer', and that certification has been very useful.

I think the actual point here is that developers who focus on Microsoft-only solutions are losing to cross-platform Java developers.

As he pointed out -- in the LA area if you want a job, your best bet is to know Java.

There are two types of MCSE's...

There are those who download braindumps, pass the tests, get a job as a "Help Desk Analist" and enjoy reading about aliens and area 51 on the web between calls. There are others who actually bust their butts till 3AM, understand kerberos, certificate authorities, RIS, etc., actually own at least one suit and actually wear it (with a properly tied tie).

The latter do not sweat profusely when they have to speak to the CIO in a presales setting, can walk into a VP's office and explain what went wrong without breaking out in hives and know how to properly use Visio, Excel, Word and the english language. They are honest, professional, show up on time, know how to search the knowledge base, always return calls and never forget that the network is just a tool for profit.

The former are doomed to an existence of troubleshooting Toshiba laptops over the phone.

The point I make is thus... you get out what you put in. There is a difference between a 35k/yr MCSE who has worked the help desk for the past six years and a consultant who paid his dues and now demands $125/hr plus travel. My dog can get an MCSE cert. It's worth it only if you make it worth it.

Lets roll!

Tholling
MCSE MCT, Compaq ASE/APS/API, A+,

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

Yes and no... You really need the knowledge, but even if you have it, with no certification, a lot of doors will be closed to you.

FWIW, I spent 4 1/2 years as a Novell instructor. I've been working with Novell networks since 1989, and I'm struggling to find the time to get my MCSE (I'm already an Novell MCNI/MCNE, Cisco CCNA, Compaq ASP, CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, and Certified Technical Trainer), while keeping up to date with Novell's new products!

Mark

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

In a word: NO. I'm responsible for recruiting & hiring in the Windows Server/Unix world. If I had $1 for every time a recruiter tried sending me an MCSE that was totally under-qualified, I'd have a few thousand dollars by now.

In the Novell world, we used to call 'em Paper CNE's.

In the Microsoft world, I call 'em Toilet Paper MCSE's because all their certifcation is worth, is wiping one's arse with.

Almost every time I've gotten into a cab in Downtown Chicago I've seen a cabbie reading one of those MCSE for Dummies (or some such book) saying they were going to get a better job.

Yeah, right.

I've been doing Windows NT since it was called LAN MANAGER back in '93. I've been doing Unix (AIX, Solaris & HPUX) since '94. I only recently got my HP certification (tested out of everything, only took 2 advanced courses) and tested all the way out of my MCSE without taking a single course. My hands-on experience FAR OUTWEIGHS what these idiots are learning in books and in so-called "labs."

I wouldn't hire anyone with an MCSE for nothing these days. Unless they have REAL experience, no way.