MCSEs: We are all idiots

Myelabs.com ^ | 11/5/01 11:44:36 AM | Editorial Staff

[csconerd]

I have to say that overall, I agree. There are too many cert seekers. Some of the replies to this thread recommend going for Linux or Cisco certs. Well, guess what. . . Those markets are in the toilet too. I'm a Cisco Instructor and a CCIE. When my company went bankrupt and dumped me (along with the rest of the instructor/consultant core), I thought I'd have a job immediately based on my background. It should be easy for a published CCIE to get a job, right? NO.

Well, I found one after a month. It came with a 30% pay cut however. I'm not overly happy about that.

The issue at the moment is that there a literally thousands of CCNA/MCSE's looking for entry level stuff. The barrier they're hitting is that all the entry level stuff has been filled by people with 5+ years experience. So, it's virtually impossible to break into the market.

As an instructor, I get physically ill at the cert chasers. Even though they pay the bills. I don't teach the exams. I teach the technologies. I tell them straight up that I really don't care if they're in exam prep mode, I'm here to teach real-world technologies.

Those people who post on the newsgroups, etc. bragging about the fact that they're paper certified and have never touched the gear make me sick. They usually suffer a bombardment of flames letting them know how much the fact that they're devaluing the certifications of those of us who have worked our butts off for this.

I've been a victim of the cert madness. But, I'd been doing this stuff for years before I got any cert. The cert newbies don't want to pay their dues, get some bruises and actually learn the concepts. They just want their piece of paper and think they should get a $200K/yr job since they got their CNE. Get real.

I'll shut up now.

Csconerd: MCNE, MCSE, CCSI, CCIE, ABCD, ASAP, RSVP. . . and so on.

[Justa]

So you back in TX now, is this where you took the pay cut? I'd keep looking if you had to take -30%. Or do consulting. My brother does consulting back East and he doesn't have any certifications, just 5 years with NT4, '95/'98, hardware and now he's reading Linux. He does real estate to put food on the table though.

I'm (still) waiting on some Fed. jobs I've put in for based upon my investigative background and security clearance. So, I probably go chase another cert. while I wait. I'm just not finding any computer-related work locally.

I advise looking around continually, I've seen some really wild wage fluctuations for essentially the same job.

[MarkL]

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

Yes and no... You really need the knowledge, but even if you have it, with no certification, a lot of doors will be closed to you.

FWIW, I spent 4 1/2 years as a Novell instructor. I've been working with Novell networks since 1989, and I'm struggling to find the time to get my MCSE (I'm already an Novell MCNI/MCNE, Cisco CCNA, Compaq ASP, CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, and Certified Technical Trainer), while keeping up to date with Novell's new products!

Mark

[MarkL]

Could be worse....you could be a CNE!! Talk about a dinasaur in the IT field.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Novell is losing the marketing battle, but their technology is top notch!

But seriously, Novell CNEs flooded the market some years ago, just like MCSE are flooding the market now... I went through the CNE training back in 1989-1990, when the tests were still open book, but if you had to look up more than 2 or three questions, you'd run out of time and fail the test...

There are still some certification that really test on knowledge and experiance, not just memorization. Novell's Admin & Advanced Admin tests both have "hands on" simulators where you have to use the utilities to accomplish certain tasks. And the Certified Directory Engineer certification is a real bear to pass, especially the "practical exam," where you use PC Anywhere to login to a network set up by Novell that's had it's Directory Services sabotaged, and you have to fix it within a certain time period. One of the most difficult tests I've ever taken.

And of course, the grand daddy of all "real" certifications is the Cisco CCIE, with it's "practical" exam!

Mark

MCNE, MCNI, CCNA

[Philip_the_evangelist]

Yeah, I've heard that of Slackware but imo it remains insufficient as a nework client replacement for current Windows users.

What is it about Slackware that makes it unsuitable for the described situation?

[Justin Thyme]

You're right Mark, Novell does have some great technologies. And many of their supporting products integrate great with NDS.

I think one thing that held them back, is that they waited too long to introduce an ability to do fairly routing administration tasks (creating users, groups, printers) at the server itself.

And I think, marketing and the power of the Microsoft machine had some to do with it too.

Mike
CNE

[Mannaggia l'America]

[usconservative]

Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

In a word: NO. I'm responsible for recruiting & hiring in the Windows Server/Unix world. If I had $1 for every time a recruiter tried sending me an MCSE that was totally under-qualified, I'd have a few thousand dollars by now.

In the Novell world, we used to call 'em Paper CNE's.

In the Microsoft world, I call 'em Toilet Paper MCSE's because all their certifcation is worth, is wiping one's arse with.

Almost every time I've gotten into a cab in Downtown Chicago I've seen a cabbie reading one of those MCSE for Dummies (or some such book) saying they were going to get a better job.

Yeah, right.

I've been doing Windows NT since it was called LAN MANAGER back in '93. I've been doing Unix (AIX, Solaris & HPUX) since '94. I only recently got my HP certification (tested out of everything, only took 2 advanced courses) and tested all the way out of my MCSE without taking a single course. My hands-on experience FAR OUTWEIGHS what these idiots are learning in books and in so-called "labs."

I wouldn't hire anyone with an MCSE for nothing these days. Unless they have REAL experience, no way.

[usconservative]

I think one thing that held them back, is that they waited too long to introduce an ability to do fairly routing administration tasks (creating users, groups, printers) at the server itself.

That, and crappy marketing. Hate to say it (as a former CNE who let his certification lapse long ago...) but Novell is all but dead. Their market share is dwindling, and about all they can do right now is hang onto what they have. NDS may be a superior directory service, but Microsoft's marketing machine is gonna kill it with the next version of Active Directory. In fact, did you know that Novell's NDS team is down to 7, and many of them jumped ship and went to Microsoft to work on AD? Novell is investing almost $0 in upgrading NDS. Microsoft is spending tens of millions of dollars on A.D. Paul Reiner, one of Novell's chief NDS Architects now works for Microsoft. Reiner authored the authoritative NDS books for Novell.

Remember Novells "Changes" campaign? Boy, that really sucked. I cringed everytime it came on tv.

[Texas2step]

Just found this thread, and wanted to through in a couple of comments. I've got a meeting and will be back to see if there's any further discussion or if the thread is playing out.

Mark is exactly right in that tons of experience and real know-how are, unfortunately, 2nd in importance to actually having the certification. At least to the eyes of many employers.

The MCSE has just been upgraded by Microsoft this year, and it is much a much tougher test than what it was previously. It requires more prep to pass, and you do have to actually be proficient in the material in order to pass the exam.

In my opinion, the MCSE from the Windows 2000 track will be much more in demand by employers than the MCSE's from the NT track.

On top of this, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to prepare for the exams. There is now training available - high quality training - for preparing for the exam for as low as $110. I sell online training, and you can find excellent training to obtain the required skills for literally pennies a day. The author is correct that many companies have (and continue to) run a con job to get folks to pony up thousands of dollars to prepare.

If you want to review quality low cost technical training visit my site:

e-LearningCenter

I'll return to see if there's any discussion and more comments later. I'm late for a meeting.

[Rum Tum Tugger]

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[Mr. Jeeves]

I'm mulling over whether to go for the 70-240 by the end of December (when its retired)...

I've pretty much decided not to bother with 70-240. I'm primarily a database developer these days and I don't really do "MCSE work" any more. And I haven't studied much, so I probably wouldn't pass. Maybe I'll do MCDBA next year.

[WOOHOO]

There is a difference between being a paper MCSE and a knowledgeable MCSE.

Same as if I only studied a drivers ed manual, took the test and passed. Would I be a good driver necessarily? No
Should that alone lessen the quality or value of a Drivers License? No.

But if I had experience driving either before or while studying to take the exam, then yes, I would be a good driver, yet it would have no bearing on the integrity of the drivers license.

The MCSE is only as good as the person who has it, just like anything. Even *nix users have people who claim to be certified but are only as good as the framed cert hanging on their wall.

[Nate505]

I'd tend to agree. I'm a self admitted paper MCSE. However, I let my employer know that up front before I was hired, and I didn't apply for jobs that required me to run whole networks on the basis that I read books about them. My only gripe before I found a job was that the entry level job market for this field seemed to be fairly small (and probably due to the reason that people with MCSE's were hired without having much experience, if any, and burned their employers). It is the same old story that applies with getting a loan. You need good credit to get a loan, yet to get good credit you need a loan. And here, you need experience to get a job, yet to get a job you need experience. Oh well, like many have said here before, SQL and other database certs are probably the way to go. I can't imagine businesses surviving without them.

[WOOHOO]

May I ask where you guys work? You can use the fr email to reply if you like

[Nate505]

I work at a pathology labratory. We have a network of one whole NT 4.0 server and around 50 workstations. Yes, not the most technolgical field in the world, but the job was there, I was unemployed, and it seemed like a nice place to get my feet wet. Getting the job was pure luck. I had my MCSE for a month or so, and was having trouble finding a job. In the meantime I took a temporary job doing regular office work, and they placed me here. I made it known that I had an MCSE, and the IT director here needed a new assistant, as her other assistant was quitting in a month. And a couple months later, I was hired outright by my company....we're upgrading our entire system to Windows 2000 in a few months, so that should be a nice change from the regular user problems I deal with, and should give me some good hands on experience.