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MCSEs: We are all idiots
Myelabs.com ^ | 11/5/01 11:44:36 AM | Editorial Staff

Posted on 11/06/2001 7:11:47 PM PST by Justa

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To: kd5cts
Yeah, I've heard that of Slackware but imo it remains insufficient as a nework client replacement for current Windows users. Companies run on employees so the computers have to be tailored to their knowledge base. Imo the 'best Linux distro' is what Shelly-down-in-accounts-receivable can operate.

The big issue I've run into talking with IT people in my area (including 3 MISs at mid-sized companies) is that their NT4 systems (inc. 98 clients) are a nightmare to operate now and they simply don't have the money for an NT5 system. Additionally, the MISs were horrified of the potential of having their databases on NT5's dynamic kernal and .Net. Another issue was the implications of the proposed changes to MS licensing next Feb. (mo' money, faster upgrading).

To be blunt, companies simply don't have this kind of money now and their NT4 systems are falling apart from security issues, malware and NT5's deployment. I had to explain to one MIS that the reason his company's software wouldn't run on a customer's new notebook was that it most likely was running 2000 or XP and they'd have to run the compatability patch/checker to see if the OS's HAL would accept their software. He said "oh, well we install our own .dlls with our software" so I had to delicately explain how NT5 deals with the installation of second-party NT4 .dlls.

From what I could tell every one of the MISs I spoke 'disliked' MS for what it was doing to their company. I.e., giving limited or no support to NT4, particularly with viruses. What's unfortuante about most IT professionals is they only know about running a computer, not a company.

21 posted on 11/06/2001 9:10:27 PM PST by Justa
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To: ikka
Yes, MCSE's are definitely worth it. Why are there so few MCSE jobs available? Because we hired the MCSE's a long-time ago and they are still employed, there isn't a need to replace them. On the other hand, the LINUX/ORCL/SUNW crowd run through their engineers every few years (they hire/fire routinely).

So, if you're a new MCSE, all I got to say is... where were you 4 years ago when the cert. first started?

22 posted on 11/06/2001 9:11:46 PM PST by bonesmccoy
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To: Justa
IT for 20 years, screw it all, I'm opening a Harley custom shop. Sayonarra (phonetic sp so you geeks don't think I'm totally stupid (ego thang, donch'a know)) suckas!!!!!!
23 posted on 11/06/2001 9:12:14 PM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Looking4Truth
Phonetic my ass!!!
24 posted on 11/06/2001 9:15:04 PM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Looking4Truth
I got your spell checker right here!
25 posted on 11/06/2001 9:16:46 PM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Justa
BTW KMA on your certifications. I've been doing fine with my skills.

Trouble is, billy boy forgot to include PEOPLE SKILLS in his little MCSE exams.

Been there, done that. BFD.

26 posted on 11/06/2001 9:19:33 PM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Justa
Thanks for the info Justa. My dear hubby has been an MSCE for about 4 years, and it is the best move he has made in his career. But there is a remarkable decrease in job opportunities out there for those credentials, and there really has been a massive influx of paper MSCE's in the last few years. CISCO may be the way to go.
27 posted on 11/06/2001 9:22:40 PM PST by Aura
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To: Justin Thyme
Thanks for the advice Justin. I'm doing pretty well in the job search now. My main area of interest is the Fed. I have 2 career fields to choose from: investigations/security based upon my military experience and computing based upon classes, certifications and 14 yr.s experience.

My long-term goal is to get into the Fed. then retire from a well-paid senior nework admin. job within an agency. There's some real choice picks out there, like 50K for network admin. of a few dozen computers on a federal military reservation in Umatilla, OR, overlooking the Columbia river with mountains and forests all around. Boating, hunting, fishing -drool.

Unfortunately, the Fed. doesn't appear to be accepting the 18 months network admin. work I did in 96-98 as it was an additional duty and isn't in my DD-214. So it looks like I may have to settle on investigations again to get back into the system. Joy.

The short-term networking work I'm looking at is to fulfill the 52-weeks experience requirement for federal hiring and since I'm rather frank (truthful) in the interviews I usually tell them this. And they start asking me if I'm going to "settle here" and what not. "Settle" on a $10/hr. job? Yeah, maybe in a camper shell. In one interview they asked me if I'd be willing to admin. their NT4 network and even though I'd run NT4 before and it's in my resume I told them "No, no way". I didn't learn 2000 to get stuck servicing a dying NT4 network. For $10/hr. I didn't need that kind of abuse. Heck, I'll do roofs first.

28 posted on 11/06/2001 9:48:59 PM PST by Justa
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To: Looking4Truth
"Trouble is, billy boy forgot to include PEOPLE SKILLS in his little MCSE exams....Been there, done that. BFD."

Yeah, who would have guessed?

29 posted on 11/06/2001 10:00:49 PM PST by Justa
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To: Aura
I've often run into the Cisco Academy folks where I take classes and also around 'in the field' since we're all eyeing employment. The thing about Cisco is there's diminshing jobs, even more than with MS. The internet has mostly been built-out in America and future buildouts will likely go at a much slower pace then what was seen in '96-2000. So for the future the existing CCNAs and CCNEs will likely be able to handle the load. There's also the wireless factor which reduces network wiring loads so there may even be a reduction in Cisco work if enough networks go wireless. I can't imagine cable going unutilized though.

If your husband has an MCSE job he should stick with his MCSE job. If anything, he should work on keeping his MS administrator skills current by working towards an MCSA.

In the end I'd advise he get away from MS networking and go to Unix/Linux. I think that within 10 yr.s MS-certified network administrators won't reside onsite @ $60K/yr. but via their keyboards in Calcutta @ $10/day. MS will of course charge something like $3.95/min. for 'Remote Administration Services'. This ability is already built into NT5 (2000/XP) and is likewise planned for .NET Enterprise Servers. When that happens likely the only techs needed onsite will be a couple of A+ hardware monkeys to service the .Net End User's equipment. With .Net MS is going to a closed network -like AOL. They won't need administrators onsite.

30 posted on 11/06/2001 10:47:59 PM PST by Justa
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To: kd5cts
I shoulda used the < /sarcasm> tag. Sorry.

I wasn't sure if you were using sarcasm but did consider it a possibility. Not to worry, I posted the links to benefit everyone.

I don't care about certifications. I want to know what you really know about real situations that cost me money. Certifications were supposed to do that. They don't. I'll stick with my sit-'em-down and tell them to type

Agreed, I would much rather have a person who can do the job over someone with a piece of paper that's worthless...and not just in the computer industry.

rm -r /

and see how much they flinch. GRIN!

You're naughty!

31 posted on 11/06/2001 11:01:07 PM PST by Philip_the_evangelist
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To: Justa
Right now I have A+, MCP2000 and Network+ and stil can't get a job locally in the field.

The tech job market in the DC area is still strong. A few certifications + clearances = $$$. Maybe the job market in Oklahoma will turn around when the economy picks up again - next spring? Best of luck job hunting.

32 posted on 11/07/2001 4:28:50 AM PST by relee
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To: Justa
Certifications are merely another revenue stream for the vendor, and a time and money trap for those who seek them. We get kids in here all the time who own nice, fresh MCSE's but have no practical skills or problem solving abilities. Like someone else said, we already had system and network engineers on staff and we sent them for their MCSEs...made no difference in their output or work ethic and they knew most of the material anyway. A waste of money from the corporation's point of view.

That said, I will sign off;

Ol' Sox (MIS, MSCE (lapsed), CLP (lapsed), CNE (lapsed))

33 posted on 11/07/2001 5:30:26 AM PST by Ol' Sox
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To: ikka
I have found that the ability to do SQL has really paid off in my consulting. I do some database work as part of ZillNet and it is a distinct advantage.

I give the same advice to go after database skill to anyone that asks, and they usually respond something along the lines that they are really more interested in some of the more exciting stuff (like the internet, etc...) People not real familiar with corporate information systems tend to go with the stuff they know about or see in the news. Databases don't make much news in the press.

When you think about it, a databse is at the core of most business applications. Take the forum we're on, FR. There isn't much doubt that most of the major functions of this site rely on a database. The OS it runs on may be Linux, but the heart of the system is the database. Almost any site on the internet that carries large amounts of info, be it a catalog, news articles, customer info, or search info is driven by a database.

Its been my experience that while different technologies come and go there is always a need for database people, and never enough of them. If your interested in some specific technology, learn how it ties in with databases.

Interested in the internet, learn about tying internet sites into a database backend.

Interested in Linux, learn about installing and maintianing database systems on Linux.

Interested in networking, learn about distributed database systems.

I know I sound like the guy in "The Graduate" who pushes plastics, but it has really been my experience that database skill are always in demand, and there is never enough of them to fill that demand.

34 posted on 11/07/2001 5:52:37 AM PST by Brookhaven
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To: ikka
I got my MCSE certification in 1996. That was when it was split up between 4 required courses, and two electives, with about 5 electives to choose from. I chose IP, and Windows networking as my electives. I took NT Workstation, Server, Win 95, and WFW 3.11 (yes Win 3.11 was a required course as late as 96--go figure, huh?) which were required. I kept the test, and have gone back to it over the years, and so far I have run into maybe 3 things that were covered by the test, and perhaps 10 that was covered in the course material. In short, the certification that guarantees anyone that I know my stuff about MS Products did NOTHING to prepare me for real world scenarios. I can remember my first call as a MCSE was to set up a network printer on an NT 4.0 network. Didn't have a clue. The course material didn't even cover such a basic task as that. I figured it out on my own as I have with almost every other thing I have had to know. The course material was utterly useless. The only good thing I can say that I got out of being an MCSE is access to MS's tech net site, which has been quite useful over the years. Basically the certifications are what I feel is just another profit center for MS. Anyone competent in networking can figure out almost anything they need to know in NT, and it's even easier in Win 2K. Basically, if you think the certification will get you more money, do it, but don't do it for "personal enrichment", as I have learned that the courses are useless in an everyday environment.
35 posted on 11/07/2001 6:23:50 AM PST by Space Wrangler
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To: ikka
Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

I'm a 'Certified Java Programmer', and that certification has been very useful.

I think the actual point here is that developers who focus on Microsoft-only solutions are losing to cross-platform Java developers.

As he pointed out -- in the LA area if you want a job, your best bet is to know Java.

36 posted on 11/07/2001 6:31:35 AM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Space Wrangler
My son recently got his MCSE. I was amazed at how quickly and easily he passed the tests - studying the book a day or so before the test and finishing well before the time given. (Is it that easy or is he just that smart :) ?) I'm not aware of his taking any classes, he's 22 and has been working for 2 years in networking stuff (techinical term here) and setting up retail websites, etc. He's had very little formal education in computers, but seems to have a natural ability for it. I keep bugging him to get his degree. (He started working toward a Chemical Engineering degree and quit after 1-1/2 years.) Should he find it necessary to seek other employment, what type of computer languages/classes would any of you recommend that he have under his belt to make him most employable?
37 posted on 11/07/2001 6:52:20 AM PST by Clintons Are White Trash
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To: Justa
We have an MSCE who freaked that a NIC was broken because he couldn't ping the subnet mask. Yes, you did hear that correctly. That was a couple of months ago. Monday he sent me to replace another broken NIC, he had not bothered to ping the loopback. The wall jack had a loose pair.
38 posted on 11/07/2001 7:02:04 AM PST by nina0113
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To: Justa; innocentbystander
Helpful article- thanks for posting it.

I can do a little bit of everything but am not certified. I've toyed with getting some sort of certification but have been unsure as to what to pursue. I've also considered getting some of the books and doing it on my own.

Do you (or anyone else) recommend some kind of Java certification? What would overall be the best kind of certification for someone who likes computers but not programming?

(IB I thought you'd be interested in this article)

39 posted on 11/07/2001 7:10:06 AM PST by mafree
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To: Justa
Oh, how quaint. They're basing their argument based on web statistics from a small number of online job listing agencies.

Phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht!

40 posted on 11/07/2001 7:13:58 AM PST by Winged Elf
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