Posted on 03/20/2017 7:19:05 PM PDT by Strac6
Never forget that when you shoot someone, however necessarily and justifiably, you look an awful lot like a killer and he looks an awful lot like a victim. The stereotype can take hold quickly if you don’t act to let the authorities – from the first responding officer to the designated lead investigator – know what happened. The old saying “You only get one chance to make a first impression” is absolutely true here.
Decades ago, I developed a five-point checklist of things I feel the righteous shooter needs to establish as soon as possible in the aftermath. It has been widely adopted, sometimes with attribution and sometimes without, and is now recommended by entities ranging from the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network to the US Concealed Carry Association. I’m rather proud of that.
Five-Point Checklist
Establish the active dynamic. That is, let the authorities know immediately what happened here. If you have harmed someone in self-defense, always remember that the active dynamic is not what you did to him, it’s what he was trying to do to you or another victim. The active dynamic is his action that forced your lawful response. It’s not, “I shot him.” It’s, “This man tried to kill me.” Or, “This man attacked my wife.” Whatever it was that led to your use of force.This makes it clear that the guy on the ground doing a convincing imitation of a victim is in fact the criminal perpetrator. It makes it clear that you, the person with the smoking gun who just shot someone, are in fact the intended victim. If one or more of your attackers has left the scene, explain that now, and give their description. It’s going to be hard for people to see you as the innocent party if you failed to let police know that a violent criminal was at large.
Advise the police that you will sign the complaint. There are two roles open in this particular play: victim and perpetrator. As noted, appearances can create mistaken role reversal if things aren’t immediately clarified. By making a statement to the police to the effect of “I will sign the complaint,” you reinforce the fact that you are the victim-complainant, the good guy or gal, and the person you’re signing the complaint on is the bad guy who forced you to harm him in legitimate defense of self or others. (Note: I would not advise using the phrase “I will press charges.” The reason is that legal terminology varies slightly jurisdiction to jurisdiction. While in many jurisdictions it is indeed the complainant who presses charges, there are some places where the local terminology is such that the prosecutor “presses charges.” If you inadvertently find yourself in one of those places and say “I will press charges,” it sounds to the police as if you have delusions of being the elected chief prosecutor, and you won’t be off to a good start. “I will sign the complaint” is neutral and universal.)
Point out the evidence. The scene will be chaotic. Witnesses will be trampling the scene. So will paramedics and police officers. I’ve seen cases of the bad guy’s gun being picked up by his accomplice or by a well-meaning neighbor who didn’t want to leave it where a child could find it. I’ve seen spent casings kicked away from their original resting place, or picked up in the treads of emergency personnel’s boots or the wheels of an ambulance gurney, thus altering the dimensions of the shooting scene and making it look like something it wasn’t. The sooner you point out the evidence to the first responding officers, the more likely it is to be secured. When you’ve done the right thing, evidence helps you.
Point out the witnesses. Witnesses worry about having to lose time from work to testify in court, or being the target for vengeance by criminals. A lot of them “don’t want to get involved.” Once they leave the scene unidentified, their testimony that would have helped to prove your innocence leaves with them. Point out the witnesses to the police at the first opportunity. (Some have asked, “What if the witness is a friend of the attacker and lies about what happened?” The fact is, he was going to do that anyway, so you haven’t lost anything. However, your having pointed him out to the police can be seen as an indication that you believed in your own innocence, or you wouldn’t have steered the police to him, and that can’t hurt.)
Politely decline further questioning until you have consulted an attorney. Studies show that, in the immediate aftermath of a life-threatening encounter, we may forget some things or get some details wrong. The questions to you will come at random as they occur to the officer, and you will answer them in the same order; in reviewing the cop’s notes and his recollection of the discussion later, this can create the false illusion that you were giving a narrative of events in the order in which they occurred, which of course is not the case. But later, when you do narrate events in the sequence of their occurrence, it creates a false perception that you have changed your story. Often, very frightening things that happened are blocked in short term memory by a subconscious that doesn’t want to recall them; when you mention something later that you didn’t mention at the scene, it sounds made up. You don’t want to answer detailed questions as to exact words spoken, distances, or time frames. None of us are human tape recorders. The tunnel vision that afflicts well over half of people caught up in something like a gunfight creates the literal optical illusion that things and people appear closer and larger than they are. If your memory tells you your attacker was six feet away when you shot him but he turns out to have been six yards away, you sound like a liar. Tachypsychia is likewise very common, the sense of things going into slow motion. It seemed to you as if the fight took a whole minute, and you say so, but a security camera shows it was actually only ten seconds, and now you look like a liar. The involved victim who had to fight for his or her very survival is the worst possible witness for measuring things in feet or inches, or counting how many shots were fired.
Experts recommend 24 to 48 hours between one of these “critical incidents,” as they are now euphemistically called in the emergency services, and when the participant is subjected to a detailed debriefing. The Force Science Institute recommends “one full sleep cycle.”
This is why my recommendation – practical advice, not legal advice – is to establish the active dynamic, indicate that you’ll sign the complaint, point out evidence and witnesses known to you…and then stop. Be polite. Do not raise your voice. I for one would answer subsequent questions with, “Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.”
Read more:
Like, duh, So I didn’t have to type it all again!!!!!.
Frankly, that site said it much better than I could have, and secondly, their precise descriptions of differential physiological affects of the injury at each level was much more than I knew previously.
Prior to reading this, had I had the time to aim precisely, I would have generally gone for a higher neck impact point, just below the base of skull at about the C3 level. The only physiological sign I knew of sufficient impact there, other than death, was Cheyne-Stokes respiration.
But now, with the new knowledge, if I had the chance and time to be more sure of my aim, I’d target the C4-C5 intersection. Let them live.... horribly.
2 tours in RVN and “advisory time” in the Sinai teach you that what you learn today.... may keep you alive tomorrow.
Here is my personal problem with all the above. I’m my own lawyer, but in the heat of the aftermath of a shooting, it would be hard to remember to call one of my old partners, rather than answer questions myself.
Secondly, directing the course of the investigation is not an option. SOMEONE will. If not you; them!
That is why you have your lawyer do it. Nothing he says is admissible in evidence. And, if the facts turn out to be a little different than your first reaction, you can correct them with out being called a liar.
It wouldn’t take a shooting to get me to clam up to law enforcement. I’d help direct them to a fleeing felon or report a crime, but if they want to do fact finding, they are going to have to have a really good reason or hear it from my attorney.
Sadly, the police have forfeited their right to have cooperation by lying to ordinary people about their motives and investigations.
But again, if the perps speak, and you don’t, you lose every time.... and the old pizzed off man routine goes away quickly when you need emergency help.
BTW, if you really want to know why you should help LEOs, call your local PD, SO or other LE agency. Ask to attend a Citizens Police Academy, and you’ll learn what BS they have to put up with to do their job.
Secondly, get a Ride Along for 4 Saturday nights with the same LEO. Try to get it in a bad part of town. Even better try to get it for 4 Saturday nights in a row. That way, you have at least one Saturday night after the welfare checks are cashed.
Tell the cop/deputy that whatever happens, it stays with you two. About week three he or she will begin to trust you. Then watch how it really goes down for them, every hour, every night.
Trust me, you will want to do everything you can to help.... or you don’t have a soul.
Be well.
One more thing.
Take a look at the first segment of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EANNV-ecW8w with the screaming rich girl and then the last segment starting about 16:00.
This is what they have to put up with. You want that job?
Be well
The only parts of your response I need to reply to (most of it is completely true, btw) are 1) when a person I have shot is moving do do ANYTHING but put his hands in the air where I can see them, then by God that is a threat because if he has them under his body to drag it along then my assumption is that he has a gun under there. 2) the only thing I am going to tell an investigating officer or DA is “he did xxxxxx to convince me that he was a threat to life/safety and so I discharged my weapon into him to eliminate that threat..... I do not wish to make any other statements without my attorney present.” If I have to repeat that 175 times, I will.
That's how I answered when I was forced to pull my weapon and defend myself and my home.
The bastard who tried breaking in was lucky I let him live. I'm lucky I knew the local sheriff's deputy personally.
For your sake, and respectfully, I strongly suggest you seek the advice of an attorney admitted to practice in your jurisdiction before you reach any conclusion regarding the use of a firearm.
Regarding post #96, if this, “dude” knows what they’re doing, then why is this “dude” copying then posting information they’ve obtained from another site onto this one?
www.spinalcord.com/c3-c4-c5-vertebrae-spinal-cord-injury
So I didn’t have to type it all again!
Oh, so you didn't have to type it all again?
Which post# in this thread had you repeated, or copied and pasted the has the same lifted information into?
Man, I hope no one here is taking your advice. You're flat out FOS and it was found your copying and pasting from other sites in an effort to impress folks. That's pretty weak Mr Strac.
Go bother someone else child. We are interested in the issue, not your trying to play disruptor in chief.
Your future comments will be ignored.
Uh huh.
Dead perps do not come into court in a wheel chair with mama pushing them and tell how they tried to surrender to you. In fact, they don’t contradict your story at all.
And, a wrongful death claim is worth about 10% of the value of a permanently disabled perp.
Accordingly, empty your clip into the criminal bastard especially toward the area above and slightly behind the ear.
add: see Prof. Duane’s video.
Do Not Talk To The Police
yes. Professor Duane, right?
The local Sheriff's Deputy asked why I didn't shoot. Well, I had full control over the situation and it was enough that the red dot from my .45cal sitting right in the middle of the perp's chest was enough to send him to the ground, arms spread out screaming "don't shoot! don't shoot! oh my God don't shoot!"
It was almost 1:30 in the morning, my oldest son was not even a month old yet. He and his mother (my soon to be EX wife, thank God!) were sleeping soundly upstairs. This stupid DRUNK idiot tried getting in my front door, side door and my patio door as I sit in my family room watching TV.
I heard the front door rattle, grabbed my .45 and went to the front door. No one was there. I heard the side door rattle and went there, no one there. Then the patio door rattled. That's when I grabbed my cordless phone and went outside, phone dialing 911 in one hand, .45 laser sighted in the other.
Found the idiot on my driveway and lit him up. 911 was already on the phone. I told dispatch to send a car to my home, I stopped a burglary in progress. Their response: We're busy right now sir, we'll be there in 30 minutes.
I yelled at the dumbass dispatcher and said "30 minutes? Send the fucking morgue, I'm shooting the asshole and going back inside."
That's when he started screaming "don't shoot! don't shoot! Oh my God don't shoot!" and pissed himself.
Literally two minutes later, two Will County (IL) Sheriff's Deputies came at high speed to my house from different ends of the road.
They took the idiot off in handcuffs.
If that drunk asshole made any move towards me or in any way tried getting his dumb, drunk ass up off my driveway I'd have shot him no questions asked. Period. I suspect he knew that which is why he pissed himself.
On a side note, one of the Sheriff's Deputies (now a good friend and has been for years) heard what the dispatcher said to me on the phone over the radio. That dispatcher didn't last but another six months on the job and she was gone.
Now THERE's someone I would've liked to shoot that night!
BTW, this was about 21 years in the middle of January here in the Chicagoland area. It was ten degrees outside and I had on a pair of sweatpants and a t-shirt. No shoes, socks or coat. The area I live in had about two sheriff's deputies covering 36 square miles at any point during the day/evening. It wouldn't have been questioned had I shot the dumbass drunk perp that I did it in self defense. I saw shooting him as unnecessary as long as he obeyed my commands, which he did. We have to use our best judgement at the end of the day. That's what I did and I stand by my actions that evening.
Bottom line as always is: don't draw your weapon unless you're prepared to shoot. I was prepared to do so if it was necessary.
I politely disagree with your actions. The reason why is things have changed in 21 years. 7 years ago in Dupage County IL (which is next to Will County IL) my mother who was 72 years old at the time talked to the Dupage County Sheriffs after a similar crime was committed against her.
Her story is not much different then yours except for the ending. There was knock on her front door in the middle of the day. She looked out the peep hole to see a person with a bandana covering their face. They opened the screen door and took a couple of kicks at the front door. She went for her 686 .357 magnum and then called 911. Looking out the peep hole the guy was standing on her lawn facing the house. With the Sherriff on their way and now armed she opened the front door with the .357 in plain sight. The guy came towards her and she told him to stop or she would shoot as she now had the .357 raised and aimed. He did and laid down on the grass. The Sheriffs deputies showed up in force.
She explained the exact same thing over and over, this guy tried to break into her house. She never said the magic words “She feared for her life.” Which is what an attorney would have said if she had kept her mouth shut. The Sheriff never asked if she was in fear of her life, which she was. She was charged with brandishing a weapon even though on average it takes more then 25 minutes for the DCS to respond to anything. The reason she was charged? Because the guy AFTER taking a couple of kicks at her door was just standing on her lawn and she had called 911. She didn’t want the guy to get away.
They made her out to be a criminal even though this guy tried to break into her house. Remember we are talking about a 72 year old woman alone in her house, minding her own business. The guy was charged with a bunch of stuff and had quite the extensive rap sheet. In a Dupage County Court a judge threw the charge out against my mother immediately and she later testified against the attempted home invader.
End of story?
NO. After jumping through hoops to get her gun back from Dupage County she got a letter from the Illinois State Police. They wanted to talk to her about her FOID card status. A hearing was scheduled, if she didn’t appear her right to own a gun would be taken away because she was charged with a firearm related offense. Never mind that it was immediately thrown out. She hired a attorney and went to the hearing. This was a 1 hour hearing and in the end her FOID card wasn’t revoked.
My point of all of this is if she would have just said “I feared for my life, this masked man tried to break into my house and now I need to exercise my right to speak with an attorney” and stuck to that, she wouldn’t have been charged with brandishing a weapon. She told the truth, she got in trouble with the Sheriffs and the State because she didn’t state that. The assumption is that castle doctrine applies but really the police are not your friends. They are the police. Sometimes common sense isn’t common sense.
The Sheriffs charged her because she went outside, just like you hence in the eyes of the law escalating the situation. Forget that the guy was 3 strike loser who had all sorts of B&Es and a rap sheet pages long. She was supposed to wait for him to actually break into the house. Basically what I’m saying is maybe it flies in Will County 21 years ago but it didn’t fly in Dupage County 7 years ago.
BTW she now lives in Will County in Naperville, she has a .40 cal w/ a laser and a large German Shepherd. She will be 80 later this year and if the ISP revoked her FOID card she was moving to Indiana. After her dealings with the ISP she wanted to sue Dupage County six ways to Sunday but after cooling off she moved to Naperville. It had to be somewhere where they had a PD and not Sheriffs.
"...send the fucking morgue, I’m shooting the asshole and going back inside..."
"...she opened the door with the .357 in plain sight..."
Here's where you're applying facts to both cases that aren't relevant in both cases.
In my case, the perp didn't know the police were on the way until I had him on the ground pissing himself and I had 911 on the phone.
Second, did I go outside looking for a fight? I went outside to see who in the hell was trying all the doors on my house at 1:30 in the morning while my newborn son and then wife were trying to sleep.
Look for a fight? Only to the extent necessary to stop an intruder from breaking into my house and making the situation much worse which would certainly have led to his death. Of that there's no doubt in my mind, even all these years later. That would've easily been considered a good shoot too.
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