Posted on 05/05/2014 2:54:33 PM PDT by Kaslin
Despite the complete failure of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, war-mongers and even self-proclaimed libertarians don't understand what is going on in the Ukraine, why it's none of our business, or even how the civil war in Ukraine started.
A friend sent me an article today from the site Conservatives for Liberty called Confused libertarians are Supporting Putin by Gabriele Stakaityte.
Supposedly the site is an "independent libertarian, free market and socially liberal campaign group".
It is difficult to judge a site on the basis of one article, but there is a difference between supporting Putin and saying Ukraine is essentially none of our business, the true libertarian position.
According to Gabriele "From soap operas to ballet performances, the Russian government is doing everything to influence the cultural life of Eastern Europe, and to maintain a stranglehold on the mentality of the people."
Let's assume that is true. Here is an equally true statement "From soap operas to ballet performances, the EU is doing everything to influence the cultural life of all of Europe, and to maintain a stranglehold on the mentality of the people."
Here's another "The US is doing everything to everyone globally, and by military force where necessary, maintain a hypocritical stranglehold on any country that dares go against the vision of the United States."
One can come up with all sorts of similar statements.
Just what did warmongers expect when the US broke promises and expanded NATO to the East? Did they expect Russia would sit back and do nothing? Did they want to start WW III?
The US fomented the overthrow of the last Ukrainian government and now does not like the result. Similarly, no one in their right mind is happy about the overthrow of the Shah of Iran decades ago, the lives lost in Vietnam, and the results of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Back to the point. This is not our battle. If those in Crimea want to join Russia, no one should care. Gabriele blats the vote in Crimea?
Was it rigged? Let's assume it was. Was it rigged to the point that an honest vote would have led to a different result. No it wasn't.
Gabriele says "Another example of confused libertarians supporting Putin is calling the new Ukrainian government illegitimate, or even fascist, whatever that is supposed to mean. The Ukrainian government is no less legitimate than the first US government, having come to power after a popular revolution."
Good grief. Look at the irony! If the current Ukrainian government is no less legitimate than the first US government, one can say the exact same thing about Crimea!
By implication, if Gabriele likes the result, the action is OK, if she doesn't, then it's not. That is essentially the hypocrisy of the US position in a nutshell.
I do not believe many libertarians are cheering Putin per se. Perhaps one can find a few self-proclaimed libertarians openly cheering Putin, but people can claim to be whatever they want, and to the point of blatant hypocrisy, Gabriele does just that.
The US has no vital interests in the Ukraine, or Georgia for that matter and we'd do well to stay the hell out of it.
Additionally, one of the greatest strategic blunders of the 20th Century was the expansion of NATO into the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria. We have committed the USA to existential war to defend them with no vital US interest that I can see.
As for the do-gooders who think we SHOULD be involved in these countries, I challenge them to cite a vital US interest.
You are a traitor, and in open collusion with imperial Russia. Are you glad we got that out of the way? LOL
Hell, I’m not even a Libertarian. I’ve been a registered and voting Republican, in every election across-the-board, since I voted for Reagan in the 1976 Primary.
Oh, and can a member of the VFW be a traitor? Disabled vet? SERE School and Waterboard survivor?
And I hope you understand that I was joking. Emotions run high on these threads, even my own.
The Just War theory doesn’t support a Just War in the Ukraine between the US and Russia.
At a minimum,
1. probability of success cannot be justified. In fact, there’s a great likelihood that the closeness of the Ukraine to Russia and the Ukraine’s historic ties to Russia will lead to huge US losses.
2. proportionality cannot be justified. In fact, the only means for the US to succeed in such a war would be through the use of weapons of mass destruction. And this would be for what gain?
This would be justified by "doing the right thing".
Or, so my do-gooder sister tells me.
Of course she's ready to send the entire USMC to find the 257 Nigerian girls that we kidnapped by the Islamists in Nigeria.
WERE kidnapped.
To be honest with you, Mariner, there isn’t one point of the Just War theory that solidly would support our going to war over the Ukraine.
The only logical, legal justification of it would be if the US had actually signed a treaty with the Ukraine to protect it.
But, I don’t think we have. We’ve indicated we would support the Ukraine, but we never achieved a completed treaty.
Because of that, I’m inclined to think we could send arms to the Ukraine with some legal justification.
But my problem — even with that — is that the Ukrainian government that was party to that agreement was overthrown.
There is no international treaty or compact...or historical norm...that legitimizes the current "government" of Ukraine.
They came to power in a coup and there have been no subsequent elections.
Similar to carving out a piece of Serbia and calling it Kosovo. Then bombing the hell out of Serbia for trying to take it back.
There's no basis for it. Well, other than we said so.
And I did not support the democrat’s war against Serbia and for Kosovo. (And then got assigned to support the one division that led our entry into Kosovo. LOL. Talk about irony.)
Whatever!
Jesus Christ: You can’t impeach Him and He ain’t going to resign.
My old bartender (LOL) was a Slavic Serb and he had a lot to say about that event.
He agreed there was a lot of killing and forced migration, but that was the only thing that worked to keep the Islamists from completely destroying the country and it's culture/history.
He also said "Kosovo" started it in a slow, steady boil from the time of the initial breakup of "Yugoslavia".
According to him, they were completely lawless with absolutely NO respect for anything except what they wanted.
I’m not suggesting we INVADE or anything but F Putin and F Russia. They and their puppets are the worst bad guys over there, not the EU or “nazi militias” or anyone else.
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