Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The US's Stealth Fighter (F-35) Is Too Heavy and Slow
Vice.com ^ | Adam Clark Estes

Posted on 07/03/2013 2:05:52 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants

The Pentagon's pursuit of the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter jet has been a heartbreaking one. If you're a tax payer, the program's estimated $1 trillion price tag probably breaks your heart a little bit. If you're an aviation enthusiast, the constant whittling away of the do-it-all aircraft's features, which in many cases actually amounts to adding weight and taking away maneuverability, must hurt a little bit, too.

If you're just an everyday American, though, you should be downright shattered that after a decade and a fortune spent, the F-35 will actually be more vulnerable than the aircraft it's replacing. At this point, the Pentagon is literally rewriting its rulebook so that the dumbed-down super jet will pass muster.

The Defense Department's annual weapons testing report reveals that the military actually adjusted the performance specifications for the consistently-underperforming line of F-35 fighter jets. In other words, they couldn't get the jets to do what they were supposed to do, so they just changed what they were supposed to do.

(Excerpt) Read more at motherboard.vice.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; aviation; defensespending; f35; lockheedmartin; stealth; waste
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-120 next last
More evidence that the F-35 will not be able to do the job it was promised to do.
1 posted on 07/03/2013 2:05:52 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Contrast with the F22, which performs way over spec. And which Obama killed.


2 posted on 07/03/2013 2:08:11 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

>>More evidence that the F-35 will not be able to do the job it was promised to do.<<

A camel=A mouse built to government specifications.

The F-35 was a great idea. Then the bureaucrats got ahold of it.

The F-16 and F-18 will probably continue to be the best MRFs well into the century.

And since the F22 was scrapped (I’ll never know why), the F-15 once again rules the skies.

Old airframes but designed back when we could actually ACCOMPLISH things.


3 posted on 07/03/2013 2:10:05 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
We don't need the F22. We've got the F35...

Famous quotes...

4 posted on 07/03/2013 2:12:33 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Breaking News: Hillary not running in 2016. Brain tumor found during recent colonoscopy...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

I have long wondered why we didn’t take existing airframes, power plants, and avionics and update them. Think what an F-16 could do with a bit of stealth technology, canards, and vector thrust exhaust nozzles. What could the F-14 do with similar technology?


5 posted on 07/03/2013 2:14:15 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Affirmative Action Aircraft, What a concept .


6 posted on 07/03/2013 2:20:42 PM PDT by al baby (Hi Mom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

>>Think what an F-16 could do with a bit of stealth technology, canards, and vector thrust exhaust nozzles. What could the F-14 do with similar technology?<<

That was what led to the F-35. Had they stayed on that track, the F-35 could have unified and advanced MRFs. A homogeneous platform would save billions (maybe trillions over time) and countless man-hours since repairs and parts would be readily available at any NATO (or friendly) country.

To use stealth, canards, variable thrust, etc. is a redesign of the airframe which, if you were to look at what an F-16/18 would look like with those would be... TA DA! The F-35!

The F-35 has been on the drawing board for over a decade (IIRC). It took 27 months to go from a paper napkin to an operation craft called the SR-71.


7 posted on 07/03/2013 2:23:03 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
Not new news, really.

The F-35 requirements have been rewritten many, many time prior to this. Range, weight, performance, price, schedule, electronics, STOVL capability, carrier adaptability, helmets, on and on.

The only target that does not change is it's ability to enrich LockMart and deplete the Treasury with unerring, unmatched, accuracy.

8 posted on 07/03/2013 2:24:00 PM PDT by diogenes ghost
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich are turning over in their graves.


9 posted on 07/03/2013 2:25:07 PM PDT by oxcart (Journalism [Sic])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: al baby

They spend $1 TRILLION to “save money”. We are replacing Falcons and Eagles and Hornets with flying pigs.


10 posted on 07/03/2013 2:25:19 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
Hard to say. Chaney killed it, which sorta forced the need for a new whatever to replace it as a result.

I tend to not believe all that's written in a very biased media who speaks for an administration that is not interested in our strong defense.

The F-35 has barely gotten started after being born into a very hostile environment. Have people forgotten the bad press that comes with developing each new airplane? This is nothing new. The airplanes people love now got the same sort of reception as the F-35 is getting.

Personally, I find it intriguing, with all sorts of commonality built in from the start and what looks like a huge amount of space up front and elsewhere for whatever systems might be now or in the future.

If it's maintenance friendly and as easy to fly and performs as well as I've read, we'll be well served.

11 posted on 07/03/2013 2:27:55 PM PDT by GBA (Our obamanation: Animal Farm meets 1984 in A Brave New World. Crony capitalism, chaos and control.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: piytar

For a reason.


12 posted on 07/03/2013 2:28:36 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Get heavy and slow...

RAM isn’t light.


13 posted on 07/03/2013 2:31:54 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

(((Ping)))


14 posted on 07/03/2013 2:32:02 PM PDT by oxcart (Journalism [Sic])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

‘One-Size-Fits-All’ is a very poor policy for weapons development.


15 posted on 07/03/2013 2:32:17 PM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GBA

Downgrading the performance expectations pretty much says that the performance isn’t going to be what once was predicted.


16 posted on 07/03/2013 2:32:52 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Hoodat

Ugh. McNamara’s TFX Fighter version 2.0. We never learn from history....


17 posted on 07/03/2013 2:45:38 PM PDT by Kozak (The Republic is Dead. We now live in a Judicial Tyranny.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

No problem. Just put in a better engine.


18 posted on 07/03/2013 2:47:04 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( ==> sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
Think what an F-16 could do with a bit of stealth technology, canards, and vector thrust exhaust nozzles. What could the F-14 do with similar technology?

Errr, nothing. "Stealth" isn't a panel you bolt on to an aircraft (despite the fact that you can coat one with *classified* materials that will reduce its radar returns. You need to change the shape to the point where radar is reflected in a direction as close to normal to the source as possible. Once you change the shape too much, you now have other issues that require more changes. A completely new design is far more practical than sprinkling magic "stealth" dust over an F-16. Ditto that with vector thrusting, etc.

Part of the problem is the incestuous relationship between the aircraft manufacturers and the DoD. Cost overruns are simply assumed (and paid), and everyone gets "comfortable" on the money spread around. A complete change in procurement procedures would be necessary reform in order to fix this. But then the people who get rich off of this (and donate lots of cash to politicians) would get hurt, and we can't have that... now can we?

19 posted on 07/03/2013 2:48:42 PM PDT by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

not nearly as stealthy as F22


20 posted on 07/03/2013 2:49:34 PM PDT by GeronL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kozak

Exactly...I’ve wondered why from the beginning they were trying this stunt again. The F-111 ended up being a fine aircraft, but the notion that one airframe could satisfy the requirements of multiple branches of the military was provided nigh impossible. I’m afraid this time they don’t have the good sense to reverse course and recoup something usable out of it.


21 posted on 07/03/2013 2:50:50 PM PDT by The Unknown Republican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

f14 with carbon fiber body would be ffffaaassssttt


22 posted on 07/03/2013 2:51:09 PM PDT by GeronL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003; Blood of Tyrants

Silly goose! You actually think that the stuff the military buys has anything to do with being the best it can get? Lockheed Martin, in particular, has been selling the US government overpriced junk for years. All these companies have been shrewd in putting facilities in small towns in every state. That means Congress is all for spending as much money as possible, regardless of what the military gets in return.

It’s a big racket. Retired colonels and generals become lobbyists for these companies, and it’s a wholesale looting of the treasury. Just like the welfare and food stamp racket, which is about big agriculture businesses, military procurement is all about enriching defenses companies and Congress.


23 posted on 07/03/2013 2:52:05 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

The F-35 is like the F-111, where bureaucrats decreed that “one size fits all, and jack of all trades”. It doesn’t do any one thing real well. Add to that the decision to make it a single engine aircraft, rather than twin engine, simply to save money, results in less than optimum performance and survivability.


24 posted on 07/03/2013 2:54:33 PM PDT by 21st Century Crusader (August 26, 1191)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)

Requirements “creep” by the DoD has killed many viable and initially, on target programs. This one is no different. They want new widgets and gizmos in the airframe, well, there’s a trade off. It gets heavier, thus slower. Then the subsequent trade off, performance.

Yet, the contractor is always the punching bag for doing what the “customer” asks and pays for.

No win situation.

When programs like the U2, SR and F117 were in production, they were either under or on budget because there weren’t thousands of acquisition people running around putting their “mark” on the airframe.


25 posted on 07/03/2013 2:57:39 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: The Unknown Republican

“The F-111 ended up being a fine aircraft..”

It did. Unfortunately, for the Australian Air Force, not ours.


26 posted on 07/03/2013 3:00:30 PM PDT by beelzepug (if any alphabets are watchin', I'll be coming home right after the meetin')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: diogenes ghost
The F-35 requirements have been rewritten many, many time prior to this. Range, weight, performance, price, schedule, electronics, STOVL capability, carrier adaptability, helmets, on and on.

LockMart's New F-35 (Now with more electrolytes!)

27 posted on 07/03/2013 3:01:13 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: piytar
Contrast with the F22, which performs way over spec.

I have a feeling it doesn't - either. Defense R&D capabilities (at least on the public stuff) seems to have hit a wall back in the Clinton years.

28 posted on 07/03/2013 3:06:29 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

F-35 doesn’t have canards.


29 posted on 07/03/2013 3:08:42 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

How would anyone know? Why would anyone who did know post such information here?

Rule of thumb in such matters. Those who know, don’t talk. Those who talk, don’t know.


30 posted on 07/03/2013 3:11:09 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

Until it burned.

Carbon burns. Aluminium melts. Reality is complex and hard.


31 posted on 07/03/2013 3:13:16 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

It only took 120 days from start to flight for the Mustang.


32 posted on 07/03/2013 3:17:09 PM PDT by Gaffer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: diogenes ghost

The RAH-66 Comanche was an example of what happens when there is this so-called “requirements creep.” We worked on stuff for it at the company I retired from and all of a sudden, one day it was cancelled. 22 years later and who knows how many billions.

We were also doing work on F-22 parts - lost that - and the Boeing offering for the new stealth fighter, which lost to competitor Lockheed. It was a butt-ugly plane, I don’t know that it would have turned out any better.


33 posted on 07/03/2013 3:17:48 PM PDT by beelzepug (if any alphabets are watchin', I'll be coming home right after the meetin')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: GBA

I think that virtually every new aircraft made in the last 50 years has been harshly criticized during “growing pains”. I do worry that this particular plane was designed to “do everything fairly well”, which may just not be physically possible. This might matter against an adversary that can do one thing well - and cost 1/10th as much.


34 posted on 07/03/2013 3:22:14 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: SZonian
When programs like the U2, SR and F117 were in production, they were either under or on budget because there weren’t thousands of acquisition people running around putting their “mark” on the airframe.

All Lockheed, Kelly Johnson, Ben Rich, and Black Programs. Their 13 step process run internally to do it right.

We need old fashioned fighter fly-offs with these proto's done in the black and keep all the Milacrats out of it and K-Street Vultures too.

Let real fighter pilots fly the protos and see what the hell they can do, all these flight test programs are so anal so risk adverse it is enough to make your head explode...

35 posted on 07/03/2013 3:23:13 PM PDT by taildragger (The E-GOP won't know what hit them, The Party of Reagan is almost here, hang tight folks.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: beelzepug
Boeing offering for the new stealth fighter, which lost to competitor Lockheed. It was a butt-ugly plane,

Oh you mean Monica

Yes that was the nickname it earned after Lewinsky with it's big air inlet in front...

36 posted on 07/03/2013 3:25:47 PM PDT by taildragger (The E-GOP won't know what hit them, The Party of Reagan is almost here, hang tight folks.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

Kelly Johnson isn’t around anymore.


37 posted on 07/03/2013 3:26:19 PM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (The IRS--a softer Gestapo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves

Oh it does. I knew someone who drove one.


38 posted on 07/03/2013 3:26:37 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants; 04-Bravo; 1FASTGLOCK45; 1stFreedom; 2ndDivisionVet; 2sheds; 60Gunner; 6AL-4V; ...
Aviation and Aerospace ping

Please ping me to aviation and aerospace articles. Thank you.

If you want added to or removed from this ping list, please contact EveningStar or Paleo Conservative.


39 posted on 07/03/2013 3:30:13 PM PDT by EveningStar ("What color is the sky in your world?" -- Frasier Crane)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I have long wondered why we didn’t take existing airframes, power plants, and avionics and update them. Think what an F-16 could do with a bit of stealth technology, canards, and vector thrust exhaust nozzles. What could the F-14 do with similar technology?

Problem is, you can't 'paint stealth' onto an airframe. The airframe itself has to be stealthy. That's in the basic design of it.

40 posted on 07/03/2013 3:30:18 PM PDT by Lazamataz (If illegal aliens voted (R), then the Dems would create the tightest border security in the world.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: taildragger
"All Lockheed, Kelly Johnson, Ben Rich, and Black Programs. Their 13 step process run internally to do it right.

We need old fashioned fighter fly-offs with these proto's done in the black and keep all the Milacrats out of it and K-Street Vultures too.

Exactly. Thanks for reading "between the lines"...

"Let real fighter pilots fly the protos and see what the hell they can do, all these flight test programs are so anal so risk adverse it is enough to make your head explode..."

The risk aversion originates from dead test pilots and crews.

But I see your point.

41 posted on 07/03/2013 3:30:28 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

“It took 27 months to go from a paper napkin to an operation craft called the SR-71.”

Kelly Johnson was still alive and in charge then!!!!


42 posted on 07/03/2013 3:36:59 PM PDT by dalereed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Original source:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-f-35-too-heavy-too-slow-and.html


43 posted on 07/03/2013 3:37:20 PM PDT by 11th Commandment (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

We all went through this kind of BS with the F-111, didn’t we?

Over weight, underpowered, and too slow.


44 posted on 07/03/2013 3:37:48 PM PDT by Flintlock ("The redcoats are coming" -- TO SEIZE OUR GUNS!!--Paul Revere)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: taildragger

LOL, I’d forgotten that! That air intake looked like somebody installed it backwards.


45 posted on 07/03/2013 3:44:03 PM PDT by beelzepug (if any alphabets are watchin', I'll be coming home right after the meetin')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>F-35 doesn’t have canards.<<

I beg to differ. The project itself has become a canard. It cannot and will never deliver.


46 posted on 07/03/2013 3:44:34 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

Informed and educated position or conjecture and opinion?

Just curious...


47 posted on 07/03/2013 3:46:10 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Flintlock

>>We all went through this kind of BS with the F-111, didn’t we?

Over weight, underpowered, and too slow.<<

My ex-wife was an F-111?


48 posted on 07/03/2013 3:47:22 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: SZonian

>>Informed and educated position or conjecture and opinion?<<

Yes.


49 posted on 07/03/2013 3:47:54 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (To attempt to have intercourse with a hornet's nest is a very bad idea)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Hoodat
‘One-Size-Fits-All’ is a very poor policy for weapons development.

It's also a poor fit for education.

50 posted on 07/03/2013 4:09:25 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-120 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson