Skip to comments.The shot heard íround the state (NY)
Posted on 03/23/2013 1:20:39 PM PDT by neverdem
Amid all the pious wailing were reading in other papers about Senate Majority Leader Harry Reids decision to take a pass on assault weapons, Albany has given us a homegrown reminder what happens when politicians rush to exploit a tragedy.
So desperate was Gov. Cuomo to beat President Obama to the punch on gun control in the immediate aftermath of the Newtown massacre, the gun law that was passed made magazines with more than seven rounds of ammunition illegal.
One problem: No one seems to make seven-round magazines...
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
Next up - revolvers can only be loaded with 3 rounds, plus you have to spin the barrel. /sarc
Gee, I wonder what they’d say if you loaded 7 in the mag, plus one in the chamber, hammer back, safety on...
I wonder if their reaction to that would be similar to throwing water on the wicked witch of the west???
I’m jus’ sayin’...
I believe the Walther PPS has a 6 or 7 round mag.
Legal to in NY.
Yup. I have four 1911s and 12 seven round mags. And the jerks who write articles about clips holding bullets are even more clueless assholes.
We need to spread the word far and wide that King Andrew rushed in where fools dare not go. He raced to beat Obama to the punch and got left out on the limb alone. King Andrew screwed up.
*Simply ignores the law, as the law itself is illegal*
Time to stand up, people. Flagrantly show it.
Ditto the Colt Mustang/Pocketlite Plus II and the Government .380 (which are all basically the same gun, allowing for differences like alloy/stainless).
Seven plus one. Condition III carry, (half) cocked and locked.
Astra Constables are the same capacity, iirc.
Ditto the Ruger LC9 9mm. 7+1.
“...if the governor hadnt bypassed the constitutionally mandated three-day waiting period for legislation”
I understand that there was a way around this that Cuomo actually complied with? Something about signing a declaration or something of an emergency? Does anyone know about this? It would really be WONDERFUL if he screwed up in a way that would cause the law to be overturned but I’m not holding my breath.
“And the jerks who write articles about clips holding bullets are even more clueless assholes.”
LOL! Agree. And, not many who read your posting caught it either. Hannity is one of the worse at saying clip, even though he claims to having packed for the past twenty years, claims to be an expert shot, etc. However, he was never in the military., There’s nothing like doing push-ups to help ones memory get things right :)
I use 8 round Wilson Combat mags in mine.
It’s called a “Message of Necessity,” and has been used and abused by Prince Andrew many times since he became governor. It’s interesting that it was critical to pass this law in the middle of the night as an emergency, yet most of the provisions don’t take effect for many months. The traitorous legislators who signed onto this law never read the damn thing (sound familiar?). They don’t understand the law today and the certainly didn’t understand it when they voted on it. They are dipshits. And the Republicans are just as responsible.
Frankly, the 7 round limit and standard capacity magazine restrictions are the least of my worries. I am more concerned with the registration aspect of the law and the non-transferability. As it stands now, within a generation there will be no more legal sporting black rifles in NY.
There are two lawsuits directly challenging the law on several grounds that are pending in state and federal court as of now. Things will start getting interesting in the next few months.
Most popular Semi-Auto pistols no longer have a safety. Some are double action only. The hand wringing crowd may get upset over that horrendous safety issue that presents, but that is the way it is.
My wife has a pocket 32, I have a pocket 380, no safety on either, and they are double action only, they both always have chambered rounds.
And, if you turn in your next door neighbor for having an illegal firearm you win $500 NY TaxSuckerBucks! Wheeeee!
This is my rifleone is for shootin
the other is for fun
It does little good for us to get hung up on terminology, the clip misnomer has been around since all the WW II movies. Hand me another clip Joe! Valid with M1 Garand, not with M1 Carbine, but I doubt any movie ever pointed out the difference. Hand me another magazine Joe, just doesnt have the same flow does it?
This is my rifle
This is my gun
One is for shootin
One is for fun
I like revolvers. No jams and they take abuse well.
With all due respect, and begging your pardon, but this is not condition 3. See the below.
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
(Per Wiki, Jeff Cooper)(note--no half-cock "safety" used in the above)
Experimenting with my 1911, at half-cock, the slide safety will not completely engage. No experienced shooter ever uses or depends on half-cock. It's a good way to break the mechanism. Not suggested. IMHO
I always carry Condition 1, with holster retaining strap between hammer and slide, snap-buttoned. For many years.
Suggesting you either review the above and modify your recommendations, or forgo instructing others in M1911A gun safety.
You can get 5 rnd mag for most AR type rifles. But it begets the question: why would I want them? If they make 30 rnd mags why would I want 5 rnd and not a 30? To comply with Andrew Cuomo and the democRATS demands for such? This line of reasoning is faulty.
Cuomo did the emergency need declaration which bypassed the normal process.
The problem is he is no smarter than his colossally stupid father.
Mario was simply stupid. If you ask him why he lost to Pataki in 1994 he will tell you that the people wanted the death penalty in NY. Really? How does NY having the death penalty affect me on a day to day basis? It doesn’t.
Mario lost the election because he is an arrogant prick and stated publicly that “the speed limit in NY will remain 55 MPH for as long as I am governor”. All of those good NYC liberals driving up I-87 to their summer homes on Lake George, saw the state police enforcing the 55 MPH speed limit (NY really ENFORCED the 55 MPH speed limit) decided they wanted 65 MPH (with a real window of opportunity of 70 MPH to 75MPH) and Mario lost the election handily.
Since the dumb Ginzo didn’t fall far from the the Guido tree, we now have Andrew. Just as arrogant and just as stupid.
The apple never falls far from the tree.
Andrews crap may fly in NY, but given the blowback, purchasing of guns and ammo in the rest of the country he just screwed himself for any Presidential run.
“It does little good for us to get hung up on terminology,”
Yep, you’re right. But, using correct terminology and nomenclature is an indicator of one’s knowledge on a given subject. In the case of certain Dem’s such as the likes of Feinstein and Schumer their lack of knowledge is most revealing. If nothing else, they show that they’re too lazy to even bother with doing a little research.
“Its called a Message of Necessity, and has been used and abused by Prince Andrew many times since he became governor.”
So did he do it correctly or is it vulnerable? (Please be vulnerable!)
The Ruger LC9 has a seven round magazine.
Hope you’re right!
Granted, but many gun advocates who are not necessarily familiar with correct nomenclature, are nevertheless 2nd amendment advocates.
I see many here that don't want to get hung up on those details, because it is easier to say she wants to take your guns, than it is to explain the technical differences in a clip and a magazine.
Ever see a naval gun magazine?
“Ever see a naval gun magazine?”
As in one’s belly button? Nope, haven’t seen one of those, lol !
However, I do own some half-moon clips, not to be confused with those pies :)
My 1911 .45 has 7-round mags. Most "pocket guns" have 6-round mags and I'd wager that some mid-size 9mm guns might have 7 or 8 round capacities. These days, they are the exception though.
I’m basically an old school type user...1911, is the tool I use, and they used to come with 7 round mags...You put one in the pipe reload back up to 7 rounds safety up hammer back...
Its called “condition one”...Thats what I was illuding to...
I used to carry combat tupperware, and in a pinch I could easily do it again...No problem...
But to get back on track...
I think you folks in NY, however many there are in your state need to make a clear statement...Every damn election you have from here on out you need to throw every single one of those jackasses out of their cush positions...R’s, D’s and I’s, it doesn’t matter...If you really want your freedoms back, you better get to work and get the toilet cleaned out...The pressure is on YOU, not the rest of us...
Easier said than done you say???
Hehehe, sounds like a pityful excuse...But hey, we didn’t make your bed...
I’d be telling the folks in Colorado the same damn thing!!!
“...Experimenting with my 1911, at half-cock, the slide safety will not completely engage. No experienced shooter ever uses or depends on half-cock. It’s a good way to break the mechanism. Not suggested. IMHO
I always carry Condition 1, with holster retaining strap between hammer and slide, snap-buttoned. For many years.
Suggesting you either review the above and modify your recommendations, or forgo instructing others in M1911A gun safety.”
The Original Colt’s Government Model (”M1911” and M1911A1” were US War Dept nomenclature) safety only blocks the sear, and is thus the least effective safety device now in use. Colt’s developed a passive firing pin block before 1940 but set it aside in the rush to arm for WWII. It was introduced into Colt’s guns on a production basis only with the MK IV Series 80.
M1911 and M1911A1 pistols do not differ in safety function and thus no differences in training exist. One presumes “1911A” was a mis-post, due to haste.
Colt’s original Government Models (1911-1970) and Mk IV Series 70 were built with a “half-cock” or sear capture notch on the hammer: if the hammer was at this position, no normal pull on the trigger would unseat it, the hammer could fall no farther, and it had to be manually drawn all the way back to engage its full-cock notch against the sear.
Many have assumed the half-cock to be a form of safety, but current training regimens discourage carrying such a sidearm with a round chambered and the hammer on the half-cock notch. Colt’s eliminated the half-cock notch in traditional form when it introduced the Mk IV Series 80; hammers from that point forward sported a mere step instead, explained as a last-ditch safety feature that would interrupt hammer fall if the user’s thumb slipped during manual cocking, thus reducing chances of inadvertent discharge. To the discomfiture of many new Series 80 shooters, if the trigger is pulled with the hammer on this step, the hammer will fall the rest of the way with a click. But it cannot develop enough momentum to drive the firing pin all the way forward to strike a primer with sufficient energy to fire a chambered round.
The Series 80 hammers are more durable and cause less sear breakage. Also, they are easier to make.
Sad to say, gunmakers themselves do not agree on terminology and are sometimes quite sloppy when it comes to parts naming. Remington itself used to market spare magazines under the title “Magazine Clip” - printed right on the bubble packs.
To aid in reducing confusion, here are the small arms definitions that used to appear in the DoD Dictonary of Military Terms:
MAGAZINE: mechanism that holds cartridges ready for the arm’s feed system.
The US M1903 rifle (”Springfield ‘03”) had an internal, non-detachable magazine. The M1911 pistol used a detachable magazine. A number of variants do exist: both the above examples are box magazines. Many 22 rimfire rifles have a tubular magazine, as do most repeating shotguns. The M1911’s magazine is of single-column type (rounds line up in one vertical column); the M1903’s magazine is of staggered-column type - the cartridges stack up in zig-zag fashion, stacked half side by side and half atop each other, and are stripped into the chamber by the rifle’s bolt from either side of the magazine. Most modern semi-auto pistols have staggered-column, single-position feed magazines: the rounds line up zig-zag lower down, but as they rise up they merge gradually into a single column, and hit the feed lips in the center, to be stripped into the chamber by the pistol’s slide. Beginning with the M1 Carbine, all rifles formally adopted into US military service have had staggered-column, dual-feed detachable box magazines.
CHARGER: a device holding several cartridges in a unit, placed temporarily on the arm while the user pushes them into the arm’s magazine; the charger is then discarded. Chargers were in common military use during the bolt action era (circa 1891 - 1950s); typically they fitted into small grooves atop the arm and the cartridges were swept into the magazine by a stripping motion of the thumb. Hence the term “stripper clip,” which is a more typical US and sporting usage. Charger-fed arms include the US M1903 and M1917 rifles, Austria’s Steyr M1912 pistol, and perhaps most notoriously, Mauser’s C96 “Broomhandle” pistol. The Broomhandle is nearly impossible to load without such a device.
CLIP: a device that holds several cartridges together in a unit, and is loaded into the arm as a unit, holding the cartridges in place for chambering by the arm’s feed system. When the supply of ready rounds is exhausted, the clip either falls out or is ejected automatically.
Clips are an integral part of the arm’s feed system and most clip-fed guns are reduced to single shots if no clips can be found. Some examples: German Commission Rifle G1888, Italian Modelo 1891, and most famously the US Rifle M-1 designed by John C. Garand.
Clips are typically of lighter, simpler, hence cheaper construction and can usually be discarded with impunity on the battlefield. Box magazines are more costly and troops today typically retain them, even in combat, except in the worst situations.
You're correct as well as being very generous--if I had thought about the A1 specification for a while, that might have been correct. But as is, it was posted with ignorance, I guess.
The remainder of your response is illuminating--pretty good right off the top of your head, I'm sure. Thanks!
I do own a M1911 frame, as well as a M1911A1, with all parts for .45ACP and Day Arms .22 conversion for both. But my street carry gun is a 1995 Mitchell Arms stainless frame and slide with bull barrel (fully supported throat); ambidextrous slide safety and other modernizations of the controls.
For that Mitchell implementation, a slipped hammer does fall on the "half-cock" detent, yet the trigger is not operable when the hammer is at half-cock.
Back in the day, I had basic training with the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine, having carried and cared for them both 50 years ago. Was familiarized with M1911A1 pistol and BAR, also. Discharged as Machine Gun Squad Leader Sgt E-5 USAR 31 Oct 62. (Still had a lot to learn about individual and crew-served weapons.) Fire direction specialist an Master Gunner for 81mm Mortar, in the 6 years. Still have an M1, all original parts matching, made about Jan 1943.
Later on, I owned and shot a M1903 Springfield Rifle (4-groove barrel) for quite a while. I received it almost like new, and loaded stripper clips for it from delinked cartridges from MG belts. Thinking on the old days, all the main body of your response had great interest for me.
Best regards -- (but still think Condition 3 is different than your primary comment indicates?).
That move that Trayvon put on George Zimmermann, of grabbing his weapon and holding it tightly, was a big of Big House lore that he got somewhere, which would have worked if Zimmermann had been carrying a revolver.
Zimmermann with a semiautomatic purse gun = live Zimmermann, dead Trayvon. (Right outcome.) Zimmermann with a revolver = another doleful murder statistic, and Trayvon's a made guy heading toward his goal of being totally hard and ruthless.
I told the same thing to ImaRudMuddle and just about got kicked off the thread. And I got told.
You must be a more intimidating board presence than I am. I don't think you attract guys like that.
Personally, I don't think carrying fully-cocked all the time is good for the mainspring, but I don't want to carry with the hammer down and a round in battery. I don't want everything riding on that firing-pin block my little Colts have .... especially since other pistols, like my Astra Constable (which I need to get a manual for, I keep reminding myself), may not have one. Lots of less-expensive designs lack a firing-pin safety.
More discussion of carry modes here (cold link):
I chased a link in that discussion thread to a 2003 Mas Ayoob article about your 1911 .... thot you'd like to see it:
Funny that one of the goodest of the good guys would have an Arabic name more usually associated with shaheedi wannabe's.
The burden of his article is that USG curried political and business favor with the Italians by specifying the Beretta M9, but when it got down to the nut-cutting in close quarters with the same kind of fanatics who used to be called juramentados in the Philippines back in 1901, the call went out again for great, big .45's.
Ah, but if the semiaito had jammed?
I’m not seeing how a double action revolver (pull the trigger, boom) would have elicited a different outcome.
- have one 5-round magazine for hunting game.
That makes sense.
I don’t hunt with my AR’s, they are strictly for fun.
If I want big game (i.e. deer) I hunt with Rem 700-BDL in .30-06. or the Mauser M98 Mag in .338 Lapua.
When out for just fun, who the hell wants to reload magazines all the time. You can easily squeeze off 5 rounds and then have to reload another mag over and over. 4 mags for one 20 round box, or 2 mags for three boxes.
I am not suggesting you should hunt with an AR. However, if you did, for some reason, want to hunt with it, a 5 round magazine might be required.
I understand, and I am not being critical. I have several AR’s and I love them. They are great fun, and reasonably accurate. The AR10 could hunt deer though I prefer the Mauser M98 or the Remington.
I never considered buying a 5 round mag for my AR’s. They make 30 round’ers (25’s for the Armalite) and there was simply no reason to buy anything less.
“Ah, but if the semiaito had jammed?
Im not seeing how a double action revolver (pull the trigger, boom) would have elicited a different outcome.”
Firing any sidearm in a hand-to-hand situation can be problematic.
Since all modern revolvers come to rest after their last fired round with an empty case under the hammer, they must be recocked (either manually, or by cycling the trigger all the way through) to bring a fresh round into alignment with the barrel. Any drag or friction (such as grabbing, as lentulusgracchus noted) will make it far tougher for the shooter to fire the next shot; mechanical advantage is not terribly good.
By contrast, modern semi-autos (”autoloaders,” or “self-loaders,” as they used to be called) extract and eject the fired case, then feed a fresh round, coming to rest with a live one under the hammer. A light pull on the trigger will fire the next round - an action nearly impossible for an assailant to counter, even if the hammer has been decocked and the shooter is using pure trigger pressure to fire again (as in the Beretta 92 or SIG 228, US M9 and M1 equivalents respectively).
If the assailant is grasping the arm’s slide, the pistol may fail to fully cycle for a follow-up shot: a stoppage, in military terms (”Jam” refers to a malfunction that cannot be remedied by any immediate action the shooter can apply - usually jams need at least partial disassembly and might require tools, not to mention considerable time).
The best and most recent test data indicate that autoloaders will fail to fire the second shot about 100 times more often than revolvers. This may sound terrible, but as recently as 1970, an autoloader was 5000 times more likely to fail at that second shot. The narrowing margin is attributed to improvements in ammunition, and subsystem design.
Well, your line on "7 +1" (which means 1 round loaded), which is not Readiness Condition 3; and "(half) cocked" (which is not a carry position of the hammer in any one of the Conditions); calling this Condition 3 is not that--it is an unapproved modification of Condition 2 which is: "round in chamber, hammer down." This is not just a personal preference--it is a gun safety issue demanding a response.
Such responses are entirely within the purview of participating on the FR forum, to which you become vulnerable as you post a viewpoint. Furthermore, you could have been seen as holding forth a safely useful mode of gun carry given to others as a recommendation, hence an "instruction" from you inferred.
When I interjected a response to you, I did approach it gently as a friend, and also closed my response with a helpful suggestion, not an imperious command. I'm sorry you took it as an invasion of your privacy, which it was not. My comment was an observation, not necessarily to be seen as a criticism.
But it was a sort of warning to onlooking novices in the developing CCDW culture to reexamine the terminology that I believe you misapplied. Again, since this is a safety issue, I gratuitously made the observation. That is not "in-your-face" or "invading your private locker" interference.
So here's the sharp point, for you and others, regarding carrying an M1911-type piece at half-cock:
From an article by Sheriff Jim Wilson:
Millers solution to the perceived grip-safety problem was to wrap some rawhide around the pistol grip, thereby deactivating the safety. In addition, he chose to carry his 1911 with a round in the chamber and the hammer on half cock (a practice I definitely do not recommended). Carrying his 1911 in the front of his waistband, without a holster, Miller would draw the pistol and thumb the hammer back much as one would draw and fire a single-action revolver. ..."
And from an M1911 technical site, the topic being "Cocked and Locked":
The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I dont advise condition 2 under any circumstances.
And also from that site, dealing with 1911 carry Conditions describing one excusable possibilty for a logical employment of half-cock as a practical but unapproved "modification" of Condition 2:
Using the"half-cock" as a safety
The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a fail-safe and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII: When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it half cocks and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldnt use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released. Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with Series 80″ type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.
But here's the pertinent information from the FM 23-35 BASIC FIELD MANUAL -- AUTOMATIC PISTOL CALIBER .45 M1911 AND M1911A issued by the U. S. Army:
Excerpt from Chapter 1. Mechanical Training, Section IV/Functioning:
12. Method of Operation, pages 11-12:
b. If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.
Excerpts from Section VII/Individual Safety Precautions:
25. Rules for Safety:
I. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded.
c. Half-cock notch. -- Draw back the hammer until the sear engages the half-cock notch and squeeze the trigger. If the hammer falls, the hammer or sear must be replaced or repaired. Draw the hammer back nearly to full cock and then let it slip. It should fall only to half cock.
Excerpt from Chapter 2. Manual of the Pistol, Loading and Firing, ...:
Section II. Dismounted
33. To LOAD PISTOL.--The commands are: 1. LOAD, 2. PISTOL.
At the command PISTOL, if a loaded magazine is not already in the pistol, insert one. Without lowering the right hand, turn the barrel slightly to the left. Grasp the slide with the thumb and fingers of the left hand (thumb on right side of slide and pointing upward). Pull the slide downward to its full extent (fig. 6). Release the slide and engage the safety lock.
---- (This command, therefore, leaves the pistol in Ready Condition 1, ready for reholstering and transport, prepared for immediate service. Note that in the Manual, there is no command for ever carrying the pistol with the hammer in the half-cock state. There is no Readiness Condition employing half-cock as a component of readiness. Only Conditions 1, 3, and 4 are covered by the command repertoire.)
In the above, it is my emphases that are in bold-face. I remember quite clearly from my Army familiarization classes with this pistol that we were never to leave the pistol in the half-cocked state lest the safeness of this feature be compromised, nor the sear face step of the hammer be unsafely marred (which your continual half-cock carry is almost certainly to eventually do); nor is the thumb safety lever fully engaged.
Since apparently you were not about to give my suggestion a serious consideration, I just hope you can bear the thought that it is your welfare and safeness in view here. My comment before was not "in-your-face." This is in-your-face.
But ... this is a free country. Think or do as you please.
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