Posted on 01/22/2013 5:35:42 AM PST by thackney
A lot of people still hang on to buggy whip and dirigible stocks hoping for a comeback.
I saw a show on PBS back in the mid-90’s about natural gas power. There were a lot of problems, the main two being:
1. It would take so long to fill up that it would be more practical to replace your fuel tank at the “gas” station with a full tank, kinda like a lot of places do with propane tanks now.
2. In an accident it would explode. The good news is that id does not radiate a lot of heat. (Most people who died in the Hindenburg disaster died from their fall, not from being burned.) To resolve this one, at the time of the broadcast they had developed a “rock like” substance to put in the tank that would absorb the gas and then release it fairly slowly (preventing explosion), but still more than fast enough to provide the fuel pressure needed.
I don’t know if either of these are resolvable, though, from a marketing perspective.
I’ve ridden in Nat Gas cars in Argentina... they seem fine. But, the range is pretty short. On an open highway, we had to refuel every 2 hours.
And, re-fueling takes longer too.
Of course in Ft Worth all their city buses are Natural gas because they have the Barnett Shale revenues and are working cooperatively to keep supplies moving.
Every vehicle on our farm ran on propane back in the early 60s. Including tractors.
As the infrastructure expands I see this as more and more feasable. As noted there is a slight performance drop but work on that is already underway. As another member noted refueling is a large problem and the simplest solution is a complete tank swap. As far as the tanks themselves there are several designs that are both lighter in weight and almost bullet proof.
Not long ago there was a product on the market that would hook into your home gas supply and a refill you vehicle while it was sitting in you garage or driveway, it was the size of a small battery charger and even had a wall mount option.
Hindenburg was filled with Hydrogen. It all burned off in about 90 seconds.
I think the rock like substance is a catalyst...necessary in Hydrogen powered vehicles.
And the Hindenburg also used hydrogen.
Natural gas is different.
Hydrogen is a terrible idea, because pure hydrogen isn’t lying around anywhere. In order to get hydrogen, you have to use a chemical process that is expensive, or use electrolysis...yes you must use alot of electrical energy to harness the energy of hydrogen...at around 50% efficiency. Politicians latched on to this, and we have the railroad in my hometown working on hydrogen locomotives with government money, and a whole bunch of other nonsense is being funded.
Natural gas does just lay around. Just like oil, its just sitting in the ground waiting to be pumped out. Its been proven as a fuel in Western Europe for decades - it can be added to a gasoline car, with a $2,000 kit.
Trucking companies in this country are starting to realize that the maintenance savings alone justify a conversion - it burns so clean, the oil change interval can be tripled, for example...and all sorts of things that go wrong in an engine are ultimately attributed to dirty oil, which is improved by burning natural gas.
In my town (Topeka) a major food maker/distributor is actively looking for a site to build a natural gas refueling station. They have pitted several contractors and engineering firms in a competitive process, to find the most economical site.
This is real private sector money. Its a viable fuel source....until Obama’s EPA shuts down fracking at least.
1. Existing service station equipment is less than 5 minutes for a 20 gallon equivalent tank.
2. We have had Compressed Natural Gas vehicles on the road for decades. While not great in numbers, they have certainly been involved in accidents. The basic design requirement of needing to withstand the 3,600 psi pressure makes them rather sturdy in the first place. The rock-stuff is not very practical; it greatly increases the storage volume or greatly reduces the already lesser range.
Since Honda has been selling CNG powered Civics since 1998 along with others since then, those issues are fully resolved. The main problem now is the refueling infrastructure. Past sales were limited to places like California and Oklahoma where commercial CNG refueling was available. Now that is growing to more locations so vehicle sales are growing, slowly, but growing.
The problem of long refill times is sorta solved. There is a pump that can be installed in your home garage. Hook the car up at night and it is full the next morning.
That doesn’t help for long trips, but it is a great solution for those who only use their car for commuting to/from work.
In an accident I don’t know if I’d rather have leaking octane or natural gas.
The Honda Civix GX (CNG fueled) has a 200~250 mile range.
Two different vehicle systems.
I am embarrassed. I remembered the facts from that old PBS show very well except for one thing: It was hydrogen, not natural gas. And yes, that completely negates my whole post.
What a maroon!
Once there are a critical number of refueling stations along the major highways, then the number of NG vehicles will increase dramatically.
Also, existing LNG trucks are produced by taking a diesel truck and applying an expensive conversion kit. Once there's enough demand, the truck manufacturers will produce trucks that start as LNG trucks, greatly reducing the price.
Two different vehicle systems
- - - -
Yes. There is a push by a couple companies to build out significant LNG refueling on the interstate system. For most, I believe they are fed directly from a high pressure transmission pipeline, rather than a low pressure distribution pipeline. For those stations, the cost is relatively minor to add CNG for lighter duty vehicles.
There will be a basic LNG supply chain on the Interstate system by the end of this year. It should be more than 200 stations by two different companies at strategic locations. Just a start, but enough to start
I would say most of the initial are not change outs but rather new trucks in fleets like UPS and others.
Article doesn’t appear to mention what type engine is involved. Is it spark ignition, or diesel/natgas dual injection??
I see this article topic just dealing with building out the fueling stations to a sufficient level with the market starting.
Most of the new truck LNG news I have read recently uses Cummins Westport. The EPA has reduced some of the models available for use in the US, but they still make some other international engines as well.
http://www.cumminswestport.com/technology
The Cummins Westport ISL G and ISX12 G spark ignited natural gas engines use Stoichiometric combustion with cooled gas exhaust recirculation (EGR) and a Three-Way Catalyst (TWC). This technology was developed to meet the stringent 2010 EPA emission requirements and was introduced with the ISL G in June 2007.
The cooled-EGR system takes a measured quantity of exhaust gas and passes it through a cooler to reduce temperatures before mixing it with fuel and the incoming air charge to the cylinder. Stoichiometric combustion in combination with cooled-EGR creates the ideal combustion process with the chemically correct mixing of fuel and air, offering increased power density and thermal efficiency. It also reduces in-cylinder combustion temperatures and creates an oxygen-free exhaust, which then enables the use of a TWC for nitrogen oxide (NOx) control.
LNG weighs less than CNG? I did not know this.
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