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A Blow to the College-Industrial Complex
National Review -- The Corner ^ | 12-27-12 | Heather McDonald

Posted on 12/27/2012 4:08:34 AM PST by afraidfortherepublic

The New York Times seems concerned that teens in the fracking belt of eastern Montana are opting to work in the new oil-field economy right after high school rather than going straight on to college. A front-page story warns: Taking a job is “a lucrative but risky decision for any 18-year-old to make, one that could foreclose on his future if the frenzied pace of oil and gas drilling from here to North Dakota to Texas falters and work dries up.”

Let’s see. Where is a teenager more likely to learn the basic and transferable virtue of showing up every day and on time, not to mention how to get along with a boss and fit into an organization — as a communications and binge-drinking double major at Missoula State University, or as a mechanic fixing broken rig equipment?

Too many high-school graduates are reflexively going to college as it is, without a clue what they are doing there or how to take advantage of higher education. Mandatory stints in the private economy before college enrollment could do wonders for study skills. If, by deferring or maybe even skipping college entirely, students were foregoing their one hope for immersion in Western civilization, there would indeed be grounds for regret.

But colleges’ own curricular decisions have long since destroyed their right to present themselves as a gateway for precious knowledge of the past.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: economy; education; labor
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1 posted on 12/27/2012 4:08:44 AM PST by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic
My daughter took a part time office job at a bank. She is now a VP and makes 6 figures.

She finished college while working and jumped at every opportunity for further education.

2 posted on 12/27/2012 4:12:54 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Taking a job is “a lucrative but risky decision for any 18-year-old to make, one that could foreclose on his future if the frenzied pace of oil and gas drilling from here to North Dakota to Texas falters and work dries up.”

A good-paying job right out of high school, with no college debts, or no pay and large debts with no promise of work, certainly not work that pays well enough to pay off your debts. Hmmmm....

3 posted on 12/27/2012 4:15:11 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Sacajaweau

There are five problems here.

One, we’ve gotten some myth that twelve years of high school is right. The odds are....at least half the kids could be wrapped up and in some trade school by age 16.

Two, the vast majority of kids ought to be in a trade school or community college. Across the nation....at best....only seven kids out of a hundred ought to be in a four-year university program.

Three, the colleges will generally admit that thirty percent of all freshman will wrap up a year and never come back. They were not prepared or wanting such a program.

Four, we’ve got degree programs that are worthless.

Five, the minute you borrow more than $40k for college.....you are in dangerous territory for economic failure in life.

It’s a mess that is waiting for a bubble-collapse, if you ask me.


4 posted on 12/27/2012 4:18:00 AM PST by pepsionice
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To: Sacajaweau

and I’ll bet the bank helped pay for her edumacation too.
Smart girl. smart bank as I’ll bet they have a very loyal employee


5 posted on 12/27/2012 4:22:18 AM PST by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: pepsionice

“only seven kids out of a hundred ought to be in a four-year university program.”

based on what


6 posted on 12/27/2012 4:23:53 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: pepsionice

One indicator is the recent grad unemployment rate. By that I mean how many find jobs that require a degree.


7 posted on 12/27/2012 4:27:52 AM PST by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: Joe Boucher
Three, the colleges will generally admit that thirty percent of all freshman will wrap up a year and never come back

What they won't admit is that this is perfectly fine with the college because of the gov't grant/loan money that flows into their purse.

8 posted on 12/27/2012 4:29:39 AM PST by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

Sounds good to me - making money, being responsible for themselves, avoiding Leftie professor indoctrination during the ‘young skulls full of mush’ stage in life - they can always get a college degree at a later date, if they wish to do so.


9 posted on 12/27/2012 4:31:00 AM PST by MissMagnolia
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To: Joe Boucher

Sorry, my reply was to another poster - don’t know how it ended up as a post to you.


10 posted on 12/27/2012 4:31:21 AM PST by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: P.O.E.

Financial aid loans should be based on the ability to pay it back.

We need engineers, doctors and good businessmen. We do not need French literature and Womens studies majors. We need to burn down the ivory tower.


11 posted on 12/27/2012 4:33:18 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz (You can't bring something to its knees that refuses to stand on its own)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
The real CONCERN of Liberals is that Home Schooling, Private Schools, and not attending Liberal Colleges will ruin the plan to indoctrinate youth in the Communist Manifesto Tradition, which is EXACTLY what has led us to this destroyed economy and has destroyed America that we live in today.

Wealth Redistribution dictated by the Elites is the Plan.....how DARE YOU be responsible, self-sufficient, independent-thinking, and NOT rely on the Gubmint and the wealth of others?

12 posted on 12/27/2012 4:36:06 AM PST by traditional1 (Don't gotsta worry 'bout no mo'gage, don't gotsta worry 'bout no gas; Obama gonna take care o' me!)
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To: EQAndyBuzz

Right most collage degrees could be reduces to a couple of years.

Way to much fluff in them just to fuel the collage industry.


13 posted on 12/27/2012 4:36:28 AM PST by riverrunner
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To: EQAndyBuzz

I’m ok with traditional “liberal arts” degrees - but they don’t teach it in a traditional fashion. I’d be thrilled if they taught Greek & Latin (including the literature), classical music theory, and surveys of math, science, law, art, etc.

But that’s all been replaced with self-esteem brain-rot.


14 posted on 12/27/2012 4:40:04 AM PST by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: EQAndyBuzz

Uh.......ECUSE ME MSTER I GOT MY MASTER IN WYMONNS STUDYS HOW YU LIEKE AT....?

Oh, sorry will there be fries with that?


15 posted on 12/27/2012 4:44:34 AM PST by jimsin
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To: pepsionice

The odds are....at least half the kids could be wrapped up and in some trade school by age 16.

You’re right. Most kids still get an 8th grade education. It just takes twelve years to do it.


16 posted on 12/27/2012 4:44:35 AM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

A high school graduate would be much better off going to a technical school for a year and learning a trade. Then they could earn their own way through college. Or they could continue with their trade, which would earn them a lot more money than a liberal arts degree.


17 posted on 12/27/2012 4:45:07 AM PST by abclily
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To: pepsionice
Across the nation....at best....only seven kids out of a hundred ought to be in a four-year university program.

You know, it once was the case that only the cream of the crop in high schools went on to college. Now, every Joe Blow and his brother are expected to go on to higher education, whether they have the intellect and desire to do so or not.

18 posted on 12/27/2012 5:10:36 AM PST by OldPossum
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To: traditional1
Our country began with many private schools and/or academies.

In our area, the kids went from their farms to the city and boarded at the same time. (It's why there is no school in the summer.) Jobs were available for the kids so they got real life work experience and schooling at the same time. EVERYONE benefited.

Being an apprentice was a big thing...In lieu of trade schools. Everything is so regulated now, this system has been killed.

19 posted on 12/27/2012 5:16:47 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: afraidfortherepublic

An accountting major graduate from college, gets a job and asks, “How do we make it cheaper?”

An engineering major graduates from college, gets a job and asks,”How do we make it better?”

A liberal arts major graduates from college, gets a job and asks...”Do you want fries with that?”


20 posted on 12/27/2012 5:26:53 AM PST by VRW Conspirator (We were the tea party before there was a tea party. - Jim Robinson)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
My favorite is still the picket-line-walking Chicago teacher who proudly told a reporter, "I teaches English."

She obviously got into college on merit alone.

21 posted on 12/27/2012 5:28:35 AM PST by JPG (Stay strong.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Here's a thought; they could work and save the money they need for a college education and pay cash when the time comes.

The problem with that, of course, is that they won't be indentured slaves of the feral government when they graduate.

Can't have that.

22 posted on 12/27/2012 5:34:02 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: abclily

I have known a few erstwhile attorneys,teachers...
Who worked in the trades.
Most were Irish and their fathers were tradesmen who insisted they pick up the family trade.
My best friend was a teacher circa 1968-1974, who became tired of driving a cab every night so he went work with his father.


23 posted on 12/27/2012 5:42:00 AM PST by DUMBGRUNT (The best is the enemy of the good!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive. You either get loans or family help. Boot strapping yourself like I did is not possible when college costs + 50K.


24 posted on 12/27/2012 5:43:35 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive. You either get loans or family help. Boot strapping yourself like I did is not possible when college costs + 50K.


25 posted on 12/27/2012 5:43:35 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

Even if the kid hates the job, it’s a lesson in itself- he’ll be more motivated to study hard in college so he won’t have to work such a nasty, dirty job when he gets older...mowing lawns and bagging groceries as a teenager helped motivate me towards getting my degree.


26 posted on 12/27/2012 5:47:32 AM PST by MuttTheHoople (Pray for Joe Biden- Proverbs 29:9)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Attending university is a major financial investment, and therefore needs to be approached accordingly - what is the pay-off if one gets degree “X” from University “0” at the cost of “Y”. If Junior wants a BS degree in Anti-Imperialist Studies, then the pay-off is a low wage job - then Junior needs to attend college that teaches this subject where it is essentially “free” to Junior.

One other commenter above said it correctly that it takes 12 years to get an 8th grade education today. Guess there is no way we’ll ever be able to squeeze in a mandatory course on basic financial literacy that one has to pass before they are allowed to go to college, or run for Congress.


27 posted on 12/27/2012 5:49:50 AM PST by Susquehanna Patriot (U Think Leftist/Liberals Still Believe That Dissent = Highest Form of Patriotism?)
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To: central_va
It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive.

Yes, it is. You go to junior college for two years, and then go to a regular college for the last two, and only go when you have the tuition saved. You might not do it in four years, but being debt-free at the end is well worth the extra time.

The reason college costs have gone up 500% in thirty years is precisely because dumb young kids were willing to bury themselves in debt to pay extra tuition so the colleges could build nice new buildings and give "scholarships" to illiterate minorities.

28 posted on 12/27/2012 5:54:54 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: central_va

It is possible. Go to a community college for your associates degree then to a state school. Add-in some correspondence courses and you have a degree relatively cheaply. Of course, you’ll also work part time during this. I know it takes some hard work, but so what? Remember, the average college student in order to graduate in 4 years has 15 hours PER WEEK in class. The average student should stop whining and start working hard. It can still be done.


29 posted on 12/27/2012 5:56:41 AM PST by hal ogen (First Amendment or Reeducation Camp?)
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To: central_va

“It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive. You either get loans or family help. Boot strapping yourself like I did is not possible when college costs + 50K.”

i was able to put my self through university working summers and part-time in school for minimum wage, but that was many, many moons ago. unfortunately, that was not the case for my kids; however, they were lucky in that they received partial scholarships, but still needed student loans to get through.


30 posted on 12/27/2012 5:58:10 AM PST by IWONDR
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive.

There are ways to reduce the load. For starters, AP tests are accepted for credits most places. CLEP is accepted at some schools.

There are also accredited institutions like Thomas Edison (NJ) and Charter Oak (CT), that allow you to bring in a potpouri of credits and bundle them for a degree. John Bear's book is useful, and he probably has a decent website these days.
31 posted on 12/27/2012 5:58:48 AM PST by Dr. Sivana ("C'est la vie" say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell. -- Chuck Berry)
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To: Future Snake Eater

“A good-paying job right out of high school, with no college debts, or no pay and large debts with no promise of work, certainly not work that pays well enough to pay off your debts. Hmmmm.... “

There will be plenty of work for kids right out of college: In the oil/gas fields. And it will be a good thing that it’s decent paying, because they’ll need the money to pay off all that college loan debt. I’m sure the guy that they will be working for - the one that started right after high school - will be suitably impressed with that Political Science degree.


32 posted on 12/27/2012 5:59:37 AM PST by RFEngineer
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To: driftdiver

Thanks for axing the right question.


33 posted on 12/27/2012 6:01:11 AM PST by OKSooner ("The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." - Revelation 22:21)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Studying engineering IS a full time job. I worked my way thru school but my GPA suffered. I would say it is better to borrow an have a higher GPA upon graduation than zero debt. It is a tricky balancing act...


34 posted on 12/27/2012 6:05:37 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va
That was then, when college costs reflected actual costs.

This is now, when college costs reflect the padded bill enabled by enticing dumb kids to pay extra because they aren't paying it now and are borrowing it instead, and the feral government lender encouraging them to become indentured slaves.

35 posted on 12/27/2012 6:11:29 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: pepsionice

Our high school college placement guy would openly state that not all kids should go to college.

I’m surprised he kept his job.


36 posted on 12/27/2012 6:28:37 AM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: central_va

It may be more difficult today than years ago, but not impossible, if you pick an “affordable” college (including living at home doing your first two years at community college, ride the bus, and live a very frugal life). But finding that job in the Obozo economy in order to work through college is an added disadvantage. . .

While I did work my way through college over 30 years ago, a small loan to bridge the difference was necessary to attend an affordable state university. I had a great job offer with a BS degree, but delayed to get my masters (at a time when non-PhD degrees were not cool) - AND I found a university that paid me a modest research stipend which I could live on very very frugally. That experience of living without a lot were very happy times; I learned a lot about myself both in and out of school.

The easy money available for college education today has grossly distorted the marketplace and allowed university to jack up the cost to cover all their overpopulated, overpaid unproductive faculty and staff. Until the easy money is cut off and a critical mass of students begins to pick schools and subjects using sound financial strategies, only then will things begin to change. That is, it would burst the bubble of college as a place to hang out and party for up to 6 years for a worthless 4 year degree subsidized by taxpayers. “Junior the dummy” won’t be able to afford to pay it back because he thinks he is entitled to continue to live an undisciplined life while he plays with all his high tech gadgets.

Just imagine a world . . .where the college loan is granted based on the value of the degree sought . . .The average student would become smarter before he enters college (!) . . . a lot of worthless college departments dry up. . . and the size colleges take on “smaller footprints” (eco-friendliness?!). . .degrees would become more competitive and valuable . . .


37 posted on 12/27/2012 6:31:44 AM PST by Susquehanna Patriot (U Think Leftist/Liberals Still Believe That Dissent = Highest Form of Patriotism?)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

The NYT doesn’t want kids to be free to avoid commie wing brainwashing known as college.


38 posted on 12/27/2012 6:31:59 AM PST by y6162
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To: hal ogen
to graduate in 4 years has 15 hours PER WEEK in class

In order to get my engineering degree in 4 years, I would have had to average over 19 hours in class per week. Each of those hours required 2 to 3 hours outside of class for an A~B average.

I tried to keep that schedule for over a year, while doing just a little side job for spending money. It was not possible and keep sanity. I stretched it out to 5.5 years. I worked long hours during the summers and breaks but I could not have made enough to pay tuition and board in less than 10 years.

That was starting 3 decades ago. Now jobs are mores scarce and college way more expensive. It would take a very long time to complete while covering all cost on your own and getting zero debt.

39 posted on 12/27/2012 6:32:12 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

The NYT owns some four year diploma mill.


40 posted on 12/27/2012 6:35:30 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; All

“This is now, when college costs reflect the padded bill enabled by enticing dumb kids to pay extra “

Those kids aren’t dumb, they are ignorant. The kids aren’t to blame for being ignorant. Its the parents fault and society in general for allowing public schools to be operated in a fashion where they prey on our children.

In a certain way its Darwinian, kids who have been taught don’t fall into the trap and are better prepared.


41 posted on 12/27/2012 6:37:52 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: P.O.E.
They've also built the degree into jobs that didn't require degrees 20-25 yrs ago. Target requires four-yr degrees for management. My sister worked for over ten years for a grocery store chain and was the Gen. Mgr of several stores (no degree, just high school diploma). She also ran a business with her husband for nearly 20 yrs. She cannot get a job at Target commensurate with her experience and skills.

I was looking at a job posting at a local university that matched almost exactly what I did when I was in the workforce 20 yrs ago (again, no degree). It required a four-yr degree as well.

42 posted on 12/27/2012 6:39:01 AM PST by Calm_Cool_and_Elected (" Undecided Voter: someone who parades their stupidity as proof of their morality." ~David Burge)
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To: central_va

“It is not possible to work your way thru college...”

Its alot of work...and I mean it looks like ALOT of work; but, I’ve know many people who have done it...even recently. I have alot of admiration for them.

On the flip side of the coin, I have a liberal co-worker, whose wife has racked up around $220k in loans, going for her PHD in Spanish!?!?! I feel sorry for hium really, because he has no idea what is about to hit him.

How did she rack up that much debt?

Living off of the loans.

I suggested to him that the loans should be limited to tuition, books, fees, etc; and, he got offended. In his mind, everyone DESERVES and education; and, in order to be a full time student and get said education, one has to borrow money for living expenses.

Its a recipe for disaster. There is no restriction on how the loans are used. In fact, I got the feeling that he had actually been encouraged to use the loans for living expenses, at the student aid office.

At the very least, I think the loans should only go for tuition and books. If the student has to get a part time job to buy his Ramen noodles, so be it...things in life are not always easy. And, if you shop at the organic food grocery store instead (like my nit wit co-worker), you are only delaying the hard parts of life.


43 posted on 12/27/2012 6:45:01 AM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: driftdiver

My point stands. It’s immoral to continue to support this “education” system, which has as a primary goal the debt-enslavement of the students.


44 posted on 12/27/2012 6:47:39 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: thackney

A co-worker of mine went to engineering school. He started out getting a job as a technician at our company. Then he went to the local college (not ABET accredited) to get his pre-requisites out of the way. This college specializes in non-traditional studnts; and, there were lots of night classes and early morning classes. Our company also gave him some flexibility on his hours...and helped with tuition.

He worked like a dog for two years. Some of the plot stamps on things he plotted were at 2 in the morning, etc, because he was working such a crazy schedule. This whole time, he and his wife (and new baby) were doing the Dave Ramsey beans and rice lifestyle, to pile up a cash reserve. He used the cash reserve to take a two year break from work and go full time to an ABET acredited program.

And he graduated!

This guy came from nothing...dirt poor. And, he worked like crazy and greatly improved his life. I really admire him for that. I don’t know if I could have done it myself; but, he proved that it is possible to work through school these days.


45 posted on 12/27/2012 6:53:46 AM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: central_va
"It is not possible to work your way thru college, it is just too expensive."

My daughter is a senior in HS, she now carries a 4.25 gpa. I am amazed at some of the offers she has gotten, Indiana State University gave her a 4 year free ride a couple of weeks ago and my daughter had no idea why I was started crying when I read the letter.

She wanted to work through high school but the wife and I made her concentrate on her grades, with her I know we made the right decision.

46 posted on 12/27/2012 6:55:20 AM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: lacrew
Our company also gave him some flexibility on his hours...and helped with tuition.

I don't mean to take away from your co-worker's accomplishment. It is significant. And very few people have the discipline at a young age to do it.

Do you remember the total amount of time, from beginning to save up for college to getting his degree?

47 posted on 12/27/2012 6:57:17 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

“It’s immoral to continue to support this “education” system, which has as a primary goal the debt-enslavement of the students.”

So you are going to change it how? By keep students out of college? lol yeah that’ll work

how about lobbying our elected reps for change? wait they are too corrupt and will just follow the money


48 posted on 12/27/2012 7:02:04 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver
So you are going to change it how? By keep students out of college?

You don't see what's coming, do you?

Do you think we can keep printing money with no consequence?

Triple-digit inflation is just around the corner. Our "elected reps" got us here.

And your solution is business-as-usual and "lobby our elected reps."

Good luck with that.

And good luck with the collapse.

49 posted on 12/27/2012 7:14:21 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Which has very little to do with which students go to college.

sheesh


50 posted on 12/27/2012 7:44:36 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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