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Vanity: It's Time To Let Go Of "They Stole It"
11-8-2012 | Self

Posted on 11/08/2012 6:25:55 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas

Reading the last two days discussion of what happened Tuesday, IMO there is one line of argument that needs to be abandoned because it's both incorrect and counterproductive:

"They stole it".

The problem with the "vote fraud" theory is that that convincing evidence that it's not correct; for example the actual results were very close to the aggregate polling predictions in the last weeks before the election, see for example:

http://election.princeton.edu/2012/11/07/after-the-storm/

For that to happen you would not only have to rig not only the election but also both the national and state level polling in such a way that the polls and final results would line up.

And the only way to do that massive conspiracy between polling organizations in fifty different states, which was somehow conducted without any evidence of it coming to light... and which operated almost perfectly each of the last three election cycles.

And the problem with believing that this sort of massive and perfectly conducted conspiracy is the problem, is that if prevents you from looking at the actual problem.

Which is that current Republican party can't sell the current conservative program as presented in the party platform and by the candidates to a majority of voters in the states with the EV total needed to win a presidential election - not even near the bottom of a deep recession when you opponent has may obvious flaws.

A national political party or movement in such a position may or may not be able and/or willing to do what's needed to change such a result.

But if you admit you have a problem, you have the potential to change something that might change your results.

But as long as your explanation for your poor results is "they stole it" - in the face of very convincing evidence from the aggregate polling that this did not happen - all you can do is stand around hoping the other guy screws up worst than you do, or that circumstances change to your advantage for reasons beyond their control, or both.

Which is hope, not a program.


TOPICS: Politics/Elections; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: fraud; polling; vanity; voterfraud
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 11/08/2012 6:25:59 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
I was in the Philly Victory Center election day, making calls. Over 70 GOP election judges were not allowed to enter their designated polling places. One woman was forcibly removed. It took six hours and a court order to get them seated. How many ballots got stuffed in the meantime?

I agree the GOP fell flat in GOTV - again. They got out-hustled in key swing states. But don't pretend that fraud is a signficant part of urban Dem voting percentages.

2 posted on 11/08/2012 6:29:30 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

But dude... they did steal it. My advice is to speak the truth to evil.

LLS


3 posted on 11/08/2012 6:29:47 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (OUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESS ARE NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY OR DESERVING OF RESPECT!)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

And then there is this:

http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/11/military-absentee-ballots-delivered-one-day-late-would-have-swung-election-for-romney/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+duffelblog+%28The+Duffel+Blog%29


4 posted on 11/08/2012 6:30:25 AM PST by Jedidah
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To: dirtboy

Oops, last sentence should be: But don’t pretend that fraud is NOT a signficant part of urban Dem voting percentages.


5 posted on 11/08/2012 6:30:46 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

In Florida and Ohio, 5% of voters only voted for President (did not vote for Senator). In Va and PA, it was almost even. The FL senate race was not tight but the VA race was tight. The Dem was behind for much of the night.

That tells me there was some last minute ballot stuffing.


6 posted on 11/08/2012 6:33:07 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: LibLieSlayer

Absolutely - This election was flat-out STOLEN by devious manipulation of the voting results. Will the Pubbies have the guts to bring this up?


7 posted on 11/08/2012 6:34:00 AM PST by Ken522
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To: LibLieSlayer

We will not win the top spot ever again unless this fraud is dealt with.

The dems must laugh their butts off knowing that no matter what we do like having a major interparty war and blame game, that it is still who counts and games the vote that is most important.


8 posted on 11/08/2012 6:34:50 AM PST by dforest
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
There were 2-3 million dead people registered to vote. The soldiers votes were lost or not counted. The pResident still has not proved he is an American.

There are so many hopeless dead issues that lead to the disaster. Move on, fight the fraud, start the Tea Party and maybe along the way we can impeach the impostor and get a real American president.

9 posted on 11/08/2012 6:35:33 AM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Ken522

uh, no they won’t.

Well, Allen West will.


10 posted on 11/08/2012 6:36:18 AM PST by dforest
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
abandoned because it's both incorrect and counterproductive...

NO. Well, er, yes.. we probably should abandon the issue, if only temporarily from a strategic perspective. BUT, while counterproductive, it IS CORRECT.

It's been correct starting from the day that the property-owner-ONLY vote was taken away, well over a hundred years ago. And since then, it's just the matter of degree. By giving non-property-owners votes, it just enables the Franklin maxim about being a republic up until the day that the public realizes they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

I will say this about Franklin - he was slightly wrong about his grammar. It's not like a switch gets turned once the public figures this out. No, it's a steady progression, from the day that the taxpayer property-owner vote started to be watered down. The only real change is the point at which it is realized. It's another issue for discussion as to if that realization point is before or after the point at which anything short of civil war can be done about it.

11 posted on 11/08/2012 6:38:59 AM PST by C210N ("ask not what the candidate can do for you, ask what you can do for the candidate" (Breitbart, 2012))
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To: Jedidah

That story is satire. How embarrassing.


12 posted on 11/08/2012 6:38:59 AM PST by Flightdeck (If you hear me yell "Eject, Eject, Eject!" the last two will be echos...)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
Well then, I guess it's back to focusing on Obama's records...


13 posted on 11/08/2012 6:39:38 AM PST by tsowellfan
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

Vote fraud is not only illegal, it is also dishonest and immoral. It is not to be tolerated anywhere, anytime, or by anybody, democrat, Republican, communist, or socialist. It makes not one whit of difference whether or not the vote fraud changes the outcome of an election. It is not to be tolerated, EVER! Neither are the voices who would discourage the apprehension and punishment of those who commit vote fraud.


14 posted on 11/08/2012 6:42:03 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

I’m doubtful that the machines changed over the votes. Although at least in Minnesota, I’m pretty confident a lot of voter fraud happens.

In MN:

1. No photo ID is required.
2. No utility statement is required
3. You may register at the polling place on the day of the election (without ID of course).

Here’s all someone needs to do in Minnesota to vote.

Voter arrive at polling place and ask for a ballot.

Polls worker “I don’t have your name in my list. You’ll have to register here. What is your name, and where do you live?”

Voter “Mickey Mouse. I live at 555 Broad Street.”

Polls worker (talking to 2nd voter) “Will you vouch for him that he is telling the truth?”

2nd Voter. “Yes”

Poll worker “Very well. Here is your ballot”

Voter then votes and gets into van with 10 other voters and goes to 20 other polling places throughout the day.

Think about the intensity these liberals have for their beliefs and the lack moral stature of so many of them. Do you really doubt there’s not at least a thousand in all of Minnesota that do this?

Ohio, I doubt it’s less of fraud, but the early voting basically allows the campaign workers to get a bus and fill it up with every black person the come across and drive them to the polls. I suspect minority voter would probably be a lot less if it were not for early voting.


15 posted on 11/08/2012 6:43:03 AM PST by MNDude
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To: tsowellfan

That’s funny.


16 posted on 11/08/2012 6:43:44 AM PST by Lurkina.n.Learnin (Superciliousness is the essence of Obama)
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To: dirtboy
I don't doubt that there were instances of fraud.

However, look at the aggregate polling results (how people said they intended to vote) prior to the election, and the actual vote counts (how they voted).

If there has been fraud on a scale sufficient to change the results, the difference would be clearly apparent.

It's not, and "vote fraud" was not a significant factor in the outcome of the presidential election in any state.

If someone wishes to believe otherwise, that's not a problem.

Unless that belief causes then to expect they can get a different result next time by preventing the fraud that was not the cause of the result this time.

Then, IMO it's a big problem.

17 posted on 11/08/2012 6:46:12 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas (million)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

Yes..

let go of they stole it..

let go of it was the evangelicals fault..

let go of the it was the catholics fault..

let go of it was the woman vote fault...

let go of the it was the youth, hispanics or blacks fault..

Hell, even let go of the gop-e fault....

18% turnout in the primaries gave us the worst candidate since hoover, and one that can barely qualify as a rino, let alone a centrist moderate.

so, put the blame where it belongs... on the backs of the voters...


18 posted on 11/08/2012 6:52:38 AM PST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
You have to understand the dynamic in Pennsylvania. Philly Dem turnout overwhelms GOP turnout elsewhere in the state. That is why vote fraud is so pervasive here, and why the Dems were so blatant this time in blocking the GOP poll watchers. PA was not projected to be a swing state and the Obama campaign did not have the same GOTV machine as other swing states. 70 poll watchers blocked is not spontaneous fraud, it is planned and systemic.

I think Pennsylvania is the primary state where vote fraud makes a major difference in statewide election results. But, then again, I am not as familiar with other states. Dems have no qualms about cheating everywhere. The problem is, Romney did not win big enough to make cheating irrelevant. Instead, the opposite happened. McCain/Palin pulled more voters in a bad GOP year than Romney did in a back Dem year. And that was the biggest problem of all - a really crappy candidate that the GOP-e insisted was the best choice.

19 posted on 11/08/2012 6:53:24 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
See, that's the problem. There IS evidence of the fraud. There were Republican poll judges ejected. There were New Black Panthers glaring at voters. There were voting machines counting Romney votes for Obama. There was even one polling place with an Obama mural on the wall. That's just some of what happened out in the open!

So, whether all the fraud and tampering that did verifiably happen was enough to change the outcome, I don't know. But it must be punished and stopped!

20 posted on 11/08/2012 6:56:04 AM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: WhiskeyX

I completely agree that such fraud is immoral and corrosive of civic virtue.

My point is that it was not a significant cause of Romney’s loss, nor likely a significant factor (as compared to inadvertent error and politicized but legal techniques of manipulation) in the result of elections for any Federal office in 2012.


21 posted on 11/08/2012 6:56:18 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas (million)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

No, they stole it. Are you seriously consideration that this administration’s complete non-compliance with the military voting registration act didn’t disenfranchise military voters?

In swing states like OH, FL, and VA military absentee ballot registration was down from 70-92%. This was a deliberate act by the Obama criminal enterprise, and it’s EXACTLY in keeping with liberal principles.


22 posted on 11/08/2012 6:56:21 AM PST by snowrip (Liberal? You are a socialist idiot with no rational argument.)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

You are right and wrong at the same time. I think they did steal it. However, the GOP does nothing about it; so, yes, we may as well let go of the “they stole it” meme. After narrowly surviving the hanging chad cheatfest of 2000, W should have made election reform a priority.


23 posted on 11/08/2012 6:57:43 AM PST by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: Ken522

Probably never but we will beat the drum and Americans will eventually demand reforms.

LLS


24 posted on 11/08/2012 7:00:23 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (OUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESS ARE NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY OR DESERVING OF RESPECT!)
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To: snowrip

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/01/military-ballot-requests-down-in-key-battleground-states/


25 posted on 11/08/2012 7:00:29 AM PST by snowrip (Liberal? You are a socialist idiot with no rational argument.)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

It is easier to use some wacky idea like stolen election than discuss the truth that Romney was a sucky candidate and way too liberal for the principled people of America who vote that way. Keep picking losers like Romney and you will continue to see the Romney lovers say the election was stolen instead of personal responsibility that Romney just plain SUCKED!!!


26 posted on 11/08/2012 7:00:37 AM PST by napscoordinator (GOP Candidate 2020 - "Bloomberg 2020 - We vote for whatever crap the GOP puts in front of us.")
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To: LibLieSlayer

What about the Republican woman in Vegas was was arrested for trying to vote twice? Yes lots of fraud but on both sides.


27 posted on 11/08/2012 7:02:21 AM PST by napscoordinator (GOP Candidate 2020 - "Bloomberg 2020 - We vote for whatever crap the GOP puts in front of us.")
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
There are other underhanded things they likely did short of fraud. For example, signing up as volunteers for the R campaign, getting hold of 100s of phone numbers to call, or doors to knock on, and shredding the lists. Or calling the undecideds and telling them to stay home. How would the good guys know they were getting shafted?

The Alinskyites have much fewer moral scruples. They could have infiltrated the R campaign with dozens of moles. If commies and jihadists can infiltrate the Pentagon, then it's that much easier for them to infiltrate a campaign.

28 posted on 11/08/2012 7:03:15 AM PST by rfp1234
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To: Flightdeck

Satire is based on reality... that is what makes it satire.

LLS


29 posted on 11/08/2012 7:03:30 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (OUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESS ARE NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY OR DESERVING OF RESPECT!)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas
The problem with the "vote fraud" theory is that that convincing evidence that it's not correct; for example the actual results were very close to the aggregate polling predictions in the last weeks before the election, see for example:

And what about Florida, where the averages were off by two points? And Ohio, where we know there was massive voter fraud. It doesn't need to be a massive nation-wide conspiracy, just a focused campaign of cheating in targeted swing states.

30 posted on 11/08/2012 7:09:21 AM PST by Kleon
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

A. There’s massive Democrat vote fraud

B. The Stupid Party refuses to do anything about it

C. Quit whining about it


31 posted on 11/08/2012 7:17:22 AM PST by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

You are utterly wrong! Frankly, I am greatly offended and fed up with all of these attempts over the years to downplay the consequences of vote fraud. I was denied thee right to vote in California when Democrats threatened to have me arrested and dragged off to jail for having the temerity to walk into my assigned polling place, present my voter registration card, California Driver’s License with picture ID, and my USAF Identity card with picturee ID. The Democrats removed me from the precinct’s list of registered voters and substituted some Hispanic named illegal immigrants whose fraudulent California Driver’s Licenses had been received in the mail months earlier. All attempts to report the crimes to the varous California authorities were refuseed. The Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department and the California Attorney General’s office even threatened to arrest me for trying to report the crimes, because they wrongfully accused me of opening the California Department of Motor Vehicles mail. Like you, every one of those people downplayed the consequences of the systematic fraud. Orange County Republicans succeeded in getting a district court conviction of the Democratic party after decades of trying, only to have the Democrats on the appellate court reverse the conviction on false technicalities.

One out of every five voter registrations in Ohio were illegitimate. A number of key Ohio counties had more registered voters than they had voting aged population. There were only a little over 100,000 votes different. Subtract the illegitimate votes, add Romney’s portion of the uncounted 200,000 provisional votes, and add the uncounted military votes, and you have a large victory for Romney in Ohio and its electoral votes.

In Florida, the margin was only a little over 40,000 votes and one-half of one percent of the vote. Add the military votes alone aand you have Romney winning Florida and its electoral votes. The same is true for a number of other states.

Frankly, I think you owe an apology for the thousands upon thousands of voters of all parties who have been victimized by massive vote fraud and then victimized over and over again in as this vote fraud disenfranchises them again and again in the following elections. The vote fraud in this election is massivee and makes a huge difference in many ways, including perhpas the outcome of the election, not to mention voter apathy.


32 posted on 11/08/2012 7:20:16 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

The Polls were based on identical democrat turnout to 2008. However the turnout was way lower in the democrats as we knew it would be due to the polls that showed the democrat base was not energised.

Interestingly enough the republicans were very energised and turned out in droves. Yet Mitt got less votes than McCain.

However I do see the elections matched the imbalanced polls. Only one way or reason that could happen. Vote fraud. High Treason.

So get over it, suck it up and realize that we have become a demockery. Dont swallow the blue pill, that is insanity. You are going to be able to overcome the sh&^ storm in our future better if you keep your head out of the sand.


33 posted on 11/08/2012 7:21:19 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: dforest

OK, so the Republicans won heavily in the House.

Congressional districts are almost identical in population nationwide.

How is it that voters chose Republican reps and then voted for Obama, gay marriage, and lib Senators?

It smells like week old fish.

Fraud has become pervasive, highly organized, and sophisticated.

The only way to find out the truth is good intel, i.e., get humint inside the Machine.

I find most Republicans are incredibly naive and innocent. They suck at humint.


34 posted on 11/08/2012 7:26:10 AM PST by darth
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

When you have millions of voters an time after time there are narrow wins of less than a thousand it screams of vote mnufacturing and making enough to win but not so many to attract attention. I think in this election we also had vote demolishing where republican votes were lost


35 posted on 11/08/2012 7:26:56 AM PST by FreeAtlanta (christian.bahits.com)
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To: napscoordinator

Hundreds of stories of dim corruption... dim elections officials fired... barring republicans from entering polling places in Philly... as official monitors... having a judge order them in... 5 hours later... and a story with no evidence that it is true... about a so called republican voting twice... and we have hundreds of tweets and fb postings where dims admit voting multiple times.

LLS


36 posted on 11/08/2012 7:31:02 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (OUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESS ARE NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY OR DESERVING OF RESPECT!)
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To: dforest

I agree.

LLS


37 posted on 11/08/2012 7:32:27 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (I AM JOHN GALT)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

Unless every pollster was corrupt (and I doubt that), there is no stolen election. The final vote totals came out very close to the polls. Just like in 2008...and 2004...and most of the election years before that. Give up “the election was stolen” idiocy.


38 posted on 11/08/2012 7:33:16 AM PST by driftless2
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To: darth

I totally agree. Repubs are naive and innocent. They also don’t want to be sore losers. They have yet to figger out the key word is “loser”. Our side are not good fighters. If we were stealing elections the outcry would be super loud.

The dems love it that we keep stabbing each other in the back and doing the circular firing sqaud within the party.

They know that the fix was in and they enjoy all the angst.

If you post at other news sites, the libs always taunt you with that.

I had one post to me you all aren’t going to win. Got it? LOL

He was correct.


39 posted on 11/08/2012 7:35:28 AM PST by dforest
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To: LibLieSlayer

Ok. So Pennsylvania going to Romney still would not have changed the fact that Romney lost overwhelmingly. I am so pissed that Romney was chosen. Anybody with a brain knew this doosh was going to go down in flames. How on Earth were we dumb enough to put up a guy who changes his beliefs at the drop of a hat and then insist to people that Romney has conviction in his beliefs. I tried to tell people that Romney has evolved and truly believes what he says now and all I got was people cracking up laughing. It is very hard to tell people that Romney is an honest guy when he flails around trying to present an issue that is a 180 from his beliefs at a recent prior time. Very difficult to do and guess what? We all failed in seeing that it could not be done.


40 posted on 11/08/2012 7:37:49 AM PST by napscoordinator (GOP Candidate 2020 - "Bloomberg 2020 - We vote for whatever crap the GOP puts in front of us.")
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To: TChris

Excellent summary.

It was rigged to at least some extent and the media of course winked and looked away, knowing that any protest on our part could simply be tossed aside as the actions of sore losers throwing a fit. And as always the democrats made sure to “Alinsky” the situation beforehand by accusing Republicans of trying to suppress the vote.

The democrats and the rats in the media are thoroughly corrupt, and so too is our system. I hate to say, but i’m not at all optimistic that things will change since so many Republican ‘leaders’ are terrified of taking a stand after seeing what happens to those who try to fight back (such as Bachmann, Palin, and West).


41 posted on 11/08/2012 7:40:11 AM PST by Humbug
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To: joe fonebone

>18% turnout in the primaries gave us the worst candidate since hoover, and one that can barely qualify as a rino, let alone a centrist moderate.

so, put the blame where it belongs... on the backs of the voters...<

Bull. Just bull. In my state, the ONLY choices I had in the primary were (A) Romney or (B) Ron Paul. And you want to know why only a small percentage came out to vote???


42 posted on 11/08/2012 7:41:17 AM PST by Darnright ("I don't trust liberals, I trust conservatives." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca)
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To: darth

I totally agree. Repubs are naive and innocent. They also don’t want to be sore losers. They have yet to figger out the key word is “loser”. Our side are not good fighters. If we were stealing elections the outcry would be super loud.

The dems love it that we keep stabbing each other in the back and doing the circular firing sqaud within the party.

They know that the fix was in and they enjoy all the angst.

If you post at other news sites, the libs always taunt you with that.

I had one post to me you all aren’t going to win. Got it? LOL

He was correct.


43 posted on 11/08/2012 7:41:40 AM PST by dforest
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To: darth
OK, so the Republicans won heavily in the House.

Congressional districts are almost identical in population nationwide.

How is it that voters chose Republican reps and then voted for Obama, gay marriage, and lib Senators?

Much of the reason is that Republicans success at the state-house level has given the party the redistricting upper hand. Added to the advantages of incumbency (including the Republican success in the 2010 congressional elections), there is now around a generic 2.5 percent Republican advantage in congressional races(1).

Given the Republican state-level successes in 2012, we will likely see this effect increase for at least the next 1-2 election cycles.

____________________

(1) There is an introductory discussion of the redistricting and incumbency effects here: http://election.princeton.edu/2012/10/04/quantifying-the-effect-of-redistricting/

44 posted on 11/08/2012 7:56:27 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas (million)
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To: napscoordinator

I cannot disagree about romney... but romney is finished forever in politics... we face elections the rest of our lives.

LLS


45 posted on 11/08/2012 8:12:47 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (I AM JOHN GALT)
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To: Kleon
And what about Florida, where the averages were off by two points?

Uh... the aggregated polling was almost spot on in FL:

Predicted: 49.8 / 49.8

Actual: 49.9 / 49.3

Projected: Scroll down to the filter for individual state projections on the right hand side.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/author/nate-silver/

Actual: http://www.politico.com/2012-election/map/#/President/2012/

And Ohio, where we know there was massive voter fraud.

Predicted: 51.3 / 47.7

Actual: 50.1 / 48.2

Obama slightly under-performed relative to polling - the opposite of what would be expected as a result of significant voter fraud.

Does not man that there was no fraud, but IMO it's a pretty convincing demonstration that it was not a significant factor.

46 posted on 11/08/2012 8:30:42 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas (million)
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To: M. Dodge Thomas

As far as the polls go. The media owns the polls. And the media is in the pockets of the democrats in case you did not figure that out. You can’t let up on vote fraud. Something has to be done to stop it or your vote simply does not count.


47 posted on 11/08/2012 8:37:48 AM PST by Revel
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To: dirtboy

So will there be lawsuits over this, and especially for assault and battery for the “forcibly removed” lady?

Bitching about it or giving up doesn’t cure the problem.


48 posted on 11/08/2012 8:42:08 AM PST by A_Former_Democrat
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To: dirtboy
its hard to admit they stole the election but they did....

they mainstream pubs can believe what they want and they talk a good talk....

Romney won...in Virginia and Florida and Ohio and probably other states...

the people were there..in record numbers for republicans...

we KNOW that machines got "caught" in several states going for bammey when the voter had pressed Romney.....that was not a coincidence....

bury your head...

lets pretend it didn't happen....

but it did....

I think its happened before...

I have no idea what to do about it....maybe its not fixable....

49 posted on 11/08/2012 8:43:24 AM PST by cherry
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To: A_Former_Democrat

We’ll see what the GOP does. I know they had a cadre of lawyers running in and out all day.


50 posted on 11/08/2012 8:47:31 AM PST by dirtboy
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