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Israel and Turkey On the Brink (The once-friendly Turks may be preparing to start a war)
HUMAN EVENTS ^ | 09/14/2011 | John Hayward

Posted on 09/14/2011 6:58:26 AM PDT by markomalley

While Americans have focused their attention on a number of domestic issues, things have been going downhill fast between Turkey and Israel.  The “Arab Spring” looks to be followed by an Islamist winter, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan wants to be Old Man Winter.  The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has even gone so far as to warn Erdogan not to muscle in on their action.

It didn’t take long for Turkey to go bad after it was pulled from the fridge of secular rule, and left on the countertop of Erdogan’s Islamist party.  Erdogan views the recent United Nations report on Israel’s action against blockade runners as a pretext to begin a round of dangerous posturing that has brought Turkey dangerously close to the brink of war.

How close?  On his way to visit Cairo, where the Israeli embassy was violently attacked by a mob over the weekend, the Turkish Prime Minister said this:

Erdogan told Al-Jazeera television in a recent interview that the Israeli raid, which killed eight Turks and a Turkish American on board a Turkish ship trying to break Israel's naval blockade of Gaza, occurred in international waters and was "unlawful." His comments were carried by Turkey's state-run Anatolia news agency late Sunday.

"It is a cause for war, but we decided to act in line with Turkey's grandeur and showed patience," Erdogan said.

Once he arrived in Cairo, he said this:

Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan discussed the deteriorating Israeli-Turkish ties in a speech to Arab foreign ministers in Cairo. He said Israel has isolated itself and must "pay the price."

Recep Tayyip Erdogan said, "The conditions we have set are still in effect and must be met in order for Turkish-Israeli relations to return to normal. So long as Israel does not apologize, so long as they do not pay reparations to the victims' families, so long as they do not lift their naval blockade of Gaza, Turkish-Israeli relations will not return to normal."

This isn’t just the belligerent white noise that normally fills the air of the Middle East.  Turkey has already suspended military ties with Israel, expelled her diplomats, and declared support for Palestinian statehood - which amounts to the forcible seizure of a big chunk of Israeli land, right in the middle of that tiny nation.  Now comes word that Turkish warships are preparing to escort the next flotilla of blockade runners to Gaza and “confront” the Israeli navy:

The Turkish Navy is planning to dispatch three frigates to the Eastern Mediterranean to ensure freedom of navigation and to confront Israeli warships if necessary, a Turkish news report said on Monday.

The Turkish frigates, to be dispatched by the Navy's Southern Sea Area Command, will provide protection to civilian ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, blockaded by Israel since 2007, the Turkish daily Sabah reported. If the Turkish warships encounter an Israeli military ship outside Israel's 12-mile territorial waters, they will advance up to 100 meters close to the ship and disable its weapon system, in a confrontation that resembles dogfights in the Aegean Sea with Greek jet fighters, according to the report.

The report comes days after Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced that Turkish warships will escort civilian aid ships headed to Gaza to prevent a repetition of last year's Israeli raid on a Turkish-owned ship that killed eight Turks and a Turkish-American, setting the stage for a potential naval confrontation with its former ally. 

 

Erdogan is stubbornly insisting that the Israeli blockade of Gaza, intended to prevent weapons shipments from reaching Palestinian terrorists, is “illegal,” even though the U.N. report specifically stated otherwise.  “The barrier to peace in the region is the mentality of the Israeli government,” he said in Cairo.  “The people in Israel are under a blockade.”  He described the establishment of a Palestinian state as “not an option but an obligation.”

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been trying to play it cool while Erdogan ratchets up the rhetoric.  “I recommend not getting lured into making all kinds of remarks,” Netanyahu said.  “I think that common sense and cool-headedness will prevail eventually, hopefully, on both sides."

However, after noticing how little the authorities in Cairo did to stop the assault on the Israeli embassy, Netanyahu described the incident as doing “severe damage to the fabric of peace.”  Just wait until a Turkish frigate fires on an Israeli naval vessel to protect the next terror flotilla.  That should do wonders for the fabric of peace.

Writing for CNN, Washington Institute Senior Fellow for Near East Policy Soner Cagaptay notes there are economic forces motivating Erdogan’s brinksmanship, as well as political and religious forces:

The specter of conflict also hangs over gas exploration in the Eastern Mediterranean.  Turkey objects to Israel’s desire to drill in its exclusive economic zone in the Mediterranean Sea largely because it hopes to block the Greek Cypriots from having the precedent of an exclusive economic zone in which they could drill for gas to the detriment of the Turkish Cypriots.  The latest escalation between Turkey and Israel might just pour oil on the political flames of gas exploration in the Mediterranean Sea.

Perhaps Ankara is only bluffing to bring Israel to its knees, and perhaps the Israelis would rather let Turkish navy-escorted flotillas sail to Gaza than risk regional war.  But one thing is clear: The Arab Spring and the Turkish-Israeli Winter are churning up the Mediterranean.

The title of Cagaptay’s essay is “Could Israel and Turkey Go To War?”  At this hour, the answer is: maybe.  Considering the history of warmer relations between the two nations, and the ominous pressures gathering against Israel from other quarters, that’s a lousy answer.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel
KEYWORDS: cyprus; greece; israel; israelturkeytension; methane; turkey
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1 posted on 09/14/2011 6:58:27 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

The Turks had better remember two words befor they start some feces with ANYONE “Ottoman Empire”. The Ottomans started some crap is WW I and it did not work out so well for them. Remember Turkey is in an earthquake zone and G*D doesn’t like ANYONE screwing around with his chosen people!


2 posted on 09/14/2011 7:02:39 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: markomalley

Just curious. Could Turkey be considered part of “Gog and Magog”?


3 posted on 09/14/2011 7:06:14 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf
Just curious. Could Turkey be considered part of “Gog and Magog”?

Chuck Missler has always thought that Turkey, though an allie with Israel and has protection treaties with them will turn on Israel, it will be interesting to see what happens.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2009/857/

All the allies of Magog are in position, except one (watch Turkey!). Af-ter nearly two decades of waiting, Turkey has finally begun official negotiations for admittance into the European Union. The two largest impediments to Turkeys EU membership are its predominantly Muslim population and its refusal to recognize the island nation of Cyprus (an EU member). This could push a wounded Turkey back into the arms of the nationalists and hard-line Islamic fundamentalists.
4 posted on 09/14/2011 7:13:03 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: US Navy Vet
Run silent.
Run deep.
5 posted on 09/14/2011 7:13:34 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (I want a Triple A president for our Triple A country)
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To: markomalley

The Magog Identity

by Chuck Missler

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. . .And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horse-men, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: - Ezekiel 38:1-4

So begins this classic passage in which Gog and Magog, with their allies, are drawn into an invasion of Israel only to have the God of Israel use the occasion to show Himself strong by intervening on behalf of His people and destroying the invading forces. The apparent use of nuclear weapons1 has made this passage appear timely and perhaps on our near horizon.

To understand this passage, it is essential to first determine who the players are. Despite the many controversies, these participants are surprisingly well identified. Just who are the people represented here by these ancient tribal names?

Why Such Weird Names?

Have you ever wondered why the Biblical prophets always seem to refer to various peoples by such strange names?  It's actually our fault!  We keep changing the names of things. There once was a city known as Petrograd. For many years it was known as St. Petersburg. Then it was changed to Leningrad. Now it's St. Petersburg again. What will it be named a few years from now? (My friends in Russia say that in Russia, even the past is uncertain!) The capital of the old world, Byzantium, was renamed Constantinople. Now that city is known as Istanbul. This occurs even in our own country.  How many of you remember when "Cape Canaveral" was renamed "Cape Kennedy"? Ten years later it became "Cape Canaveral" again.

But we do not change the names of our ancestors! So, if you were the prophet Isaiah and were called upon to speak of the Persians over a century before they emerged as an empire, how could you refer to them?  You would speak of them as the descendants of Elam, the forebears of the Persians.2

The Table of Nations

Did you realize that you and I are related?  All of us are descendants, not only from Adam, but from Noah. Noah and his three sons repopulated the entire Earth after the flood. Thus, we are all descendants of Noah's three sons: Ham, Shem, and Japheth. We are all relatives.  (Perhaps that's why we don't get along any better!) The genealogical records of Noah and his three sons are listed in Genesis 10, and the 70 original tribal groups described there are often called by Biblical scholars, The Table of Nations. Specifically, to understand the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 - 39, we need some background on Magog and his allies.

Magog was one of the sons of Japheth3  and his descendants are often referred to by their Greek name, the Scythians. 4  One of the earliest references to Magog was by Hesiod, "the father of Greek didactic poetry," who identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C.5  Hesiod was, in effect, almost a contemporary of Ezekiel. Another of the major sources on the ancient history of the Middle East is, of course, Josephus Flavius, who clearly identified Magog:

Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians .6  

Another first century writer was Philo,7  who also identified Magog with southern Russia. But most of our information comes to us from Herodotus, who wrote extensively in the 5th century B.C.

The "Father of History"

Herodotus of Halicarnassus is known as the "Father of History."  He wrote the earliest important historical narrative, in which he described the background and the course of the great war between the Greeks and the Persians in the 5th century B.C. Numerous archeological discoveries have clearly confirmed Herodotus' reports in general, and his Scythian accounts in particular.8 

The tortuous path from the horseback archery of the early Scyths to the nuclear missiles of the Russian Federation includes many centuries of turbulent history. The various descendants of Magog terrorized the southern steppes of Russia from the Ukraine to the Great Wall of China. 

The "Steppes of History"

The earliest origins of the area settled by the descendants of Magog, the extreme north and east, are clouded by the passage of time and war. Only faint traces remain, but enough to establish the critical identities. Our indebtedness extends from writers predating Ezekiel to the energies of the Russian archaeologists in more recent years. In the 9th century B.C. a number of nomadic tribes created a new state in the region of Lake Van in present-day Turkey, which immediately became a competitor of Assyria. The Assyrians called this state Urartu. The Urartean state quickly became powerful, and in the first half of the 8th century B.C. extended its rule over a wide area.

Assyria could not stand by indifferently as Urartu expanded and grew more powerful. During the reign of Argishti's son, Sarduri II (764-735 B.C.), the Assyrians undertook two campaigns against Urartu, in 743 and 735 B.C. In the second, they reached and besieged the Urartean capital of Tushpa. Two groups are frequently referred to in Urartean and Assyrian texts: the Cimmerians and the Scythians. Both will figure prominently in subsequent identifications.

The Cimmerians

The Cimmerians are the oldest of the European tribes living north of the Black Sea and Danube, and whom we know by the name they used for themselves. The Cimmerian period in the history of southern Ukraine began in the late 11th century B.C. The Cimmerians were the first specialized horse-nomads to make their name in history.9  The earliest osteological evidence of the domestication of the horse occurs south of Kiev about 2500 B.C.10  Their nomadic lifestyle, including mounted warriors, fully developed between the 10th and 8th centuries. 11

They are first mentioned in secular literature in The Odyssey and The Iliad of Homer (8th century B.C.), and in Assyrian cuneiform texts from the 8th century B.C. (before Ezekiel), and of course, in Herodotus (5th century B.C.). Herodotus indicates that the whole North Pontic steppe region, occupied in his time by the Scythians, belonged earlier to the Cimmerians. 12  Homer13  associated the Cimmerians with a fog-bound land, perhaps the Crimean peninsula on the north shore of the Black Sea. Some scholars derive the name of "Crimea" from the Cimmerians.14  The Cimmerians surged into Asia Minor in the late 7th century B.C. They annihilated the Phrygian kingdom after destroying and looting its capital, Gordium. In 652 B.C. they captured Sardis and plundered the Greek cities of the Aegean coast and Asia Minor.  In the early 7th century, Cimmerian forces were checked and routed by the Assyrians who came to the aid of the Scythians. By the 6th century B.C. the name of the Cimmerians disappeared from the historical scene.

In the 5th century B.C., Herodotus15 related that the Cimmerians were driven south over the Caucasus, probably through the central Dariel Pass, by the Scythians in a domino-like effect as the Scythians themselves were pushed westward by other tribes. This can be correlated with Chinese records.16  The numerous references in the Talmud has left little doubt that these descendants of Gomer then moved northward and established themselves in the Rhine and Danube valleys 17

The Scythians

We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18  The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near East in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukraine north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian Sea. 

Herodotus describes them living in Scythia (i.e., the territory north of the Black Sea). He describes Scythia as a square, 20 days journey (360 miles) on a side. It encompassed the lower reaches of the Dniester, Bug, Dnieper, and Don Rivers where they flow into the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. 19  

The Scythian language belonged to the Iranian family of the Indo-European languages.20  The Ossetian dialect of central Caucasus appears to be a survivor.21  The original area in which Iranian was spoken extended from the mid-Volga and the Don regions to the northern Urals and beyond. From here, Iranian-speaking tribes colonized Media, Parthia, Persia, Central Asia, and as far as the Chinese border.

In the 7th century B.C. the Scythians swept across the area, displacing the Cimmerians from the steppes of the Ukraine east of Dnieper River, who fled from them across the Caucasus.22  It is provocative that even the name "Caucasus" appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog's Fort."23

The hippomolgoi ("mare-milkers") mentioned in Homer's Iliad 24  were equestrian nomads of the northern steppes and several authorities also identified these with the Scythians. 25   [One of the delicacies I was presented with when I was being hosted by the Deputy Chairman of the Soviet Union was fermented horse milk!  These traditions may have a deep history, indeed.]

Tombs That Tell Tales

The fact that the Scythian culture extended more than 2,000 miles east from the Ukraine was demonstrated by the sensational discovery of tombs in the Chilikta Valley of East Kazakhstan, published in Russian in 1965:

...prove that Scythian material culture had spread to the Mongolian border as early as the 6th century B.C. 26

Countless Scythian burials, ranging from the 6th - 2nd century B.C., have been uncovered in the areas to the north and east of the Black Sea, in many cases beyond the limits of what Herodotus demarcated in his day as "Scythia" proper. Soviet scholars have, of course, worked broadly in this region. 27  More than 1,200 graves were investigated by A. Leskov in the Crimean area between 1961 and 1972.  Aerial surveys also have been employed.28  Hundreds of Scythian graves from the 4th and 3rd centuries have been discovered since the 1930s by B. Grakow, A. Trenoschkin, and E. Tschernenko, in the Ukraine. One of the many implications of the Soviet finds is the authentication of the reliability of Herodotus as a source of knowledge of the Scythians. The leading authorities on the Scythians, T. Rice, T. Sulimirski, and others, all regard Herodotus as thoroughly vindicated.29

Remarkable circumstances led to the preservation of otherwise perishable materials. The frozen conditions marvelously preserved textiles, remains of horses, human skin and hair, entrails, undigested food, etc., for more than 2,300 years! In July 1995, Russian archaeologists found a 2,500 year old Scythian horseman under more than seven feet of ice in Siberia near the Chinese and Mongolian borders.  More than 6,500 feet above sea level, the Ukok Plateau is blanketed by a thick layer of rocks that keeps the ground frozen year round.  The horseman had been given his ceremonial burial in his fur coat and high leather boots, alongside his horse in a log-lined chamber in the Altai Mountains. He also had his ax, quiver, and dagger.30 

According to Herodotus and archaeological evidence, the Scythians occupied territory from the Danube to the Don. The northern boundary extended beyond the latitude of Kiev. Near Olbia lived the Callipidae and Graeco-Scythians, and farther north, the Alazones.

Defense in Depth

One reason Herodotus gave so much detailed information about the Scythians was that he wanted to describe the people who had succeeded in defeating the Persian king, Darius. This was a most important element in the history of Scythians, and the memory of it remained with them for many years. In resisting the Persians, a provocative strategic tradition was born: Defense in Depth.  This unique strategy also would characterize these descendants of Magog in more recent times against both Napoleon and Hitler.

Darius I crossed the Bosphorus and invaded Scythia. The Scythians, however, had devised an unusual tactic for conducting warfare. The Persians expected to crush the Scythians in a decisive engagement, but the Scythians avoided such a battle. They retreated deep into their own territory, laying waste the region and wearing down the enemy by means of small raids.  In pursuing the Scythians, Darius soon came to appreciate the cunning of these "partisan" tactics. Reaching the Volga, Darius, acknowledging defeat, had to retreat from Scythia in shame.

As every student of military history knows, Napoleon and Hitler, each, in more modern times, encountered the same tactics from the Scythian descendants and yielding similar results. When Napoleon entered Russia in 1812, Field Marshall Kutuzov's similar strategy, including the sacrifice of Moscow itself, resulted in reducing Napoleon's Grande Armée from 453,000 to less than 10,000, and yielding the ignomious defeat now commemorated in Tchaikovsky's Overture of 1812. In 1941, Hitler suffered a similar defeat from the same Scythian strategy: allowing a quick advance deep into the Russian interior only to have his Wehrmacht swallowed up in the harsh winter.

Decline

Greater Scythia disintegrated in the late 3rd century B.C., and the territory extended only from the Lower Dnieper to the Crimea.  There were several causes; the main one was apparently ecological.  Evidently the natural and climatic conditions of life on the steppe were changing. According to some experts there was a "desertification" of the steppe. 31  The population moved to more favorable areas, in particular southwards to the southern Dnieper. The Scythians finally succumbed to attacks from the Goths.

Scythians in the New Testament

The word Scythian occurs once in the New Testament. Paul stresses the fact that people from the most diverse backgrounds can be one in Christ:

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 
- Colossians 3:11

These unsavory associations mean nothing to readers today but would have aroused a strong emotional response from Paul's audience.  According to this passage, not only were all classes of society, civilized and uncivilized, one in Christ, but even those cruel, barbaric Scythians - the epitome of savagery in the ancient world 32 - were eligible for redemption through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Even as you and I are. No matter how barbaric or cruel our own history is, His redemption is available for the asking.]

More to Come

The background that has endowed these vibrant people with the beauty of Pushkin, Dostoyevsky, and Tchaikovsky has also given them the cruelty of Ivan IV,33  the intensity of Lenin, and the brutality of Stalin. In our next installment, we will review more of the stormy events from their colorful but violent past, from the invasion by the Huns into the European steppes, the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the appearance in Asia and Europe of the Turks, Avar and Khazar Khanates, and the invasion by the armies of Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde. See Roots of War: Profiling the Middle East.

*  *  *

This article was originally published in the
August 2002 Personal Update NewsJournal.

For a FREE 1-Year Subscription, click here.


**NOTES**

  1. Ezekiel 39:9-15.
  2. Isaiah 11:11; 21:2; 22:6.
  3. Genesis 10:2; I Chronicles 1:5.
  4. Keil, C.F., & Delitzsch, F., Biblical Commentary on the Prophecies of Ezekiel, T. & T. Clark, Edinburgh, 1891, vol 2, p.157; Gesenius, Wilhelm, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Crocker & Brewster, Boston, 1872, pp.534, 626, 955, 1121; Scofield, C.I., ed., The Scofield Reference Bible, Oxford University, 1917, p.883; The New Scofield Reference Bible, English, E.S., 1967, p.881.
  5. F. W. Gingrich & Frederich Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature,  Univ. of Chicago Press, Chicago & London, 1957.
  6. Josephus, Antiquities, 1.123; Jerome, Commentary on Ezekiel 38:2.
  7. F. H. Colson, G.H. Whitaker, & Ralph Marcus, Philo, Loeb Classical Library, London, 1929-1953.
  8. W. Spiegelberg, The Credibility of Herodotus' Account of Egypt in the Light of the Egyptian Monuments, Blackwell, Oxford, 1927; O. E. Ravn, Herodotus' Description of Babylon, A. Busck, Copenhagen, 1942.
  9. E. D. Phillips, "New Light on the Ancient History of the Eurasian Steppe," American Journal of Archaeology 61, 1957, p. 274.
  10. J. F. Downs, "The Origin and Spread of Riding in the Near East and Central Asia," American Anthropologist 63, 1961, p. 1196.
  11. K. Jettmar, "Die Entstehung der Reiternomaden," Saeculum 17, 1966, p. 1-11.; E.D. Phillips, "New Light on the Ancient History of the Eurasian Steppe," American Journal of Archaelogy, 61, 1957.
  12. Herodotus 4.11.
  13. Odyssey, 11.13-19.
  14. Strabo 7.4.3.
  15. Herodotus  4.11-13.
  16. T. Rice, The Scythians , 3rd ed., Praeger, NY, 1961, p. 43.
  17. Targum Yonasan and the Midrash: identification with Germania.
  18. It is interesting to notice how frequently a woman is linked with a serpent: Genesis 3; the legends surrounding the birth of Alexander the Great, etc.
  19. B.A. Rybakov (Rus: Herodotus's Scythia ), Nauka, Moscow, 1979, p. 19.
  20. See R. G. Kent, Old Persian, 2nd ed., American Oriental Society, New Haven CT, 1953, p. 6; J. Potratz, Die Skythen in Sudrussland , Raggi, Basel, 1963, p.17.
  21. See "Scythian"(Rus: Great Soviet Encylopedia ), 3rd ed., 1979, vol 23, pp.259-260. Also, Herodotus 4.117, 4.108, 4.106.
  22. Herodotus  4.12.
  23. Dr. John Gill, A Commentary on the Old Testament, 1748.
  24. Iliad, 13.5.
  25. B.N. Grakov, Die Skythen , Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften, Berlin, 1980, p.4.
  26. M. Van Loon, review of J. Potratz, Die Skythen in Sudrussland, in Journal of Near Eastern Studies , 29, 1970, p.71.
  27. Rybakov, pp.104-168; T. Sulimirski, "The Scythian Age in the U.S.S.R.," Bulletin of the Institute of Archaeology, London, 10, 1971, pp.114-131; V. S. Olkhovski, "The Scythian Catacombs in the Steppes of the Black Sea" Sovetskaia Arkheologiia, no. 4, 1977, pp. 108-128; "The Ancient Tombs of the Scyths According to Herodotus and the Archaeological Data," Sovietskaia Arkheologiia, No. 4, 1978, pp. 83-97. A. M. Leskov, "Die skythischen Kurgane," Antike Welt 5, Sondernummer; 1974.
  28. A. M. Leskov, "Die skythischen Kurgane," Antike Welt, 5, Sondernummer; 1974.
  29. T. Rice, Scythians, p. 42; Rybakov, Gerodotova Skifiia, pp. 239-240; M. I. Artamonov, Treasures from Scythian Tombs in the Hermitage Museum, Thames and Hudson, London, 1969, p. 16; K. S. Rubinson, "Herodotus and the Scythians," Expedition,  17, Summer, 1975, p. 20; T. Sulimirski, "Scythian Antiquities," p. 294, citing works of C. F. Lehmann-Haupt, V. Struve, G. C. Cameron, and A. Baschmakoff in support of Herodotus. Also, J. Przyluski, "Noveaux aspects de l'histoire des Scythes," Revue de l'Universite de Bruxelles, 42, 1936-1937, pp. 210ff.
  30. "Experts struggle to preserve 2,500-year-old Horseman," Orange County Register, Sept 1, 1995.
  31. Some believe that orbital perturbations may have altered the Earth's ecological balance in ages past. See Signs in the Heavens, Koinonia House.
  32. i.e., II Maccabees 4:47; III Maccabees 7:5; Josephus, Contra Apionem 2.269.
  33. The notorious exploits of Ivan The Terrible are hardly more shocking than the Massacre of St. Bartholemew's Day or the methods of the Roman Catholic Inquisition. See Dave Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast, Harvest House, 1994.

6 posted on 09/14/2011 7:17:19 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Scythian

Gee, it is almost as though those who wrote the Biblical prophesies actually knew what was going to happen.

Most alive today don’t realize how preposterous all that prophesy about Israel seemed before 1948, when Israel as a nation was thought of as we think of the ancient and now defunct nations of the old testament.

But then reality stepped in and, well, here we are...


7 posted on 09/14/2011 7:17:55 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

Yes


8 posted on 09/14/2011 7:17:55 AM PDT by Errant
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To: cuban leaf
Just curious. Could Turkey be considered part of “Gog and Magog”?

Yes, and likely a major player when the time comes.

9 posted on 09/14/2011 7:19:46 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (To some, George Orwell's story, "1984" is a cautionary tale. To others, it's a "how to" manual.)
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To: markomalley

So, what will NATO do?


10 posted on 09/14/2011 7:25:21 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: TigersEye
So, what will NATO do?

That is a VERY, VERY, VERY interesting question. Please note Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty:

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

What makes it interesting is if Israel did a pre-emptive strike. By treaty obligation, we would be obliged to defend Turkey against such an attack.

At least I'd bet that this is how Obama / Clinton would interpret it...

11 posted on 09/14/2011 7:31:48 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: TigersEye

What ever Al Quida or te “Arab Spring” tells them to.


12 posted on 09/14/2011 7:32:53 AM PDT by sport
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To: markomalley

Just go ahead and pop em a third eye...to hell with the islamo’s


13 posted on 09/14/2011 7:41:07 AM PDT by aces
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To: markomalley

And if Turkey makes the first aggressive move it must fall into a very gray area. Perhaps NATO is too busy trying to find Gaddafi to take on anything else right now. /s


14 posted on 09/14/2011 7:42:39 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: sport

We all know where the Muzzie In Chief stands and he thinks NATO is his private army.


15 posted on 09/14/2011 7:44:04 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: markomalley
If the Turkish warships encounter an Israeli military ship outside Israel's 12-mile territorial waters, they will advance up to 100 meters close to the ship and disable its weapon system, in a confrontation that resembles dogfights in the Aegean Sea with Greek jet fighters, according to the report.

What the Turks don't seem to realize is that Israel isn't Greece. The Greeks aren't going to go to war if they don't have to. They aren't going to actually start shooting without orders from Athens. The Israelis have been in a shooting conflict of one form or another since 1948. They tend to shoot when threatened, and apologies, sometimes, later. Turkey is trusting their foreign policy to Israeli lieutenants because those are they guys who will have authority to pull the triggers when ships are that close.

Israel may not be particularly good at politics or propaganda. But they excel in combat like no other nation on Earth. The only way to "disable their weapons systems" is to trade fire with them. Israel has a tendency to win that kind of a trade.
16 posted on 09/14/2011 7:45:12 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: markomalley

So have at it. All that will be left of Turkey is the feathers.


17 posted on 09/14/2011 7:45:43 AM PDT by Force of Truth (Intelligence and virtue are preferable in a candidate, but I'd much rather he or she be chinchy.)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120185,00.html


18 posted on 09/14/2011 7:50:00 AM PDT by domeika
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120185,00.html


19 posted on 09/14/2011 7:50:00 AM PDT by domeika
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To: cuban leaf

Just curious. Could Turkey be considered part of “Gog and Magog”?**

I think it’s Russia and China. Russia scares the crap out of me.


20 posted on 09/14/2011 8:02:18 AM PDT by Force of Truth (Intelligence and virtue are preferable in a candidate, but I'd much rather he or she be chinchy.)
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