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Legalize cannabis? Not so fast, say medics
Bermuda Sun ^ | June 22, 2011 | Raymond Hainey

Posted on 06/22/2011 11:34:42 PM PDT by AustralianConservative

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1 posted on 06/22/2011 11:34:49 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

I really hope they don’t. I believe it’s a lie that marijuana is not harmful. Dr. Paul being a doctor should know better. Barney Frank is nothing but a little ugly worm who makes my skin crawl.


2 posted on 06/22/2011 11:39:51 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: AustralianConservative
This article is a tissue of logical fallacies - chief among them, the "Straw Man" fallacy mixed with the "It's for the Children!" fallacy. Though the "All or Nothing" fallacy (also known as "Demanding Perfection") likewise gets a good work-out. And the fact that the medical side-effects (neurological changes, metabolic disorders, etc.) and behavioral problems (not completing high school, etc.) of ALCOHOL are, of course, not mentioned.

And, of course, the societal costs (including erosion of the Constitution - specifically of the Bill of Rights) of the "War on (Some) Drugs" are not discussed.

That's why I say: "RE-legalize it."

Regards,

3 posted on 06/22/2011 11:42:02 PM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: AustralianConservative
Dr Simmons said: “People say ‘it’s only weed, it’s natural’. It is a natural substance, but it can have significant adverse effects. It can not only cause psychosis, but exacerbate existing phychoses.”

Poison Ivy is also a natural weed. Let's smoke some, right after we finish this delicious Night Shade salad!

4 posted on 06/22/2011 11:43:08 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

Exactly. Did you know snake venom can make you dizzy too? These people are nuts.


5 posted on 06/22/2011 11:46:38 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: alexander_busek
You have the gall to point out a “Straw Man” fallacy, and follow by saying alcohol is bad, so let's legalize marijuana (paraphrased).

I double dog dare you to wipe your butt with some poison ivy. It's a plant and so is Marijuana. Go for it.

Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.

6 posted on 06/22/2011 11:46:47 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

I have heard that argument used so many times, and they always find a way to say that hemlock, nightshade etc. don’t count.


7 posted on 06/22/2011 11:46:50 PM PDT by LukeL (Barack Obama: Jimmy Carter 2 Electric Boogaloo)
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To: freekitty
I really hope they don’t. I believe it’s a lie that marijuana is not harmful.

Going to a disco and staying out until 5 a.m. when you have to work the next day is likewise "harmful." Hey! Let's make that illegal, too!

Alcohol causes changes to the brain chemistry. 7-year-olds who drink two bottles of Jim Beam a day have a lower high school graduation rate... Hey, let's illegalize alcohol for everyone!

No one here is claiming that marijuana smoke is better for your lungs than fresh, pine-scented air. Rather, it is the recognition that the "War on (Certain) Drugs" has caused immensely greater harm than good, and squandered billions, while simultaneously encouraging the creation of a sprawling bureaucracy with para-military powers that tramples on our Constitutional Rights because - "It's for the Children, sniff!"

Regards,

8 posted on 06/22/2011 11:48:35 PM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: freekitty

It is funny how these leftists demand no cigarette smoking and vilify it at every chance they get....yet they glorify marijuana when the smoke is more toxic to the lungs.

Marxism has no logic....it makes evil good good, evil....everything is relative. They don’t care about the “children”....they want addicts and dysfunctional people who need government to take care of them.

If we had no welfare state...then fine, have no laws against marijuana...BUT since we DO have government interference in all aspects of life we can’t legalize it because then they do not suffer the consequence for their actions.

It is like the welfare queen....we pay women to have babies out of wedlock so Voila!! we get lots of it.

We legalize drug use and have government subsidize the losers...and Voila...we will get a lot of the dysfunctional addicted behavior....and a lot of the college kids I talked to who smoked marijuana said it made them lazy and they would skip classes or work etc.

Wow—how far from the Horatio Algers type who formed Reagan’s worldview.

Now we have dysfunctional, lazy people forming the worldview of our future generation....Great!


9 posted on 06/22/2011 11:48:47 PM PDT by savagesusie (Virtue is a habit of the mind, consistent with nature and moderation and reason. Cicero)
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To: freekitty

Me too. Socialists love drug legalization. It creates dependence on government. I know. I’ve witnessed it Europe. Ron Paul reminds me of cult leader though who is beyond accountability.


10 posted on 06/22/2011 11:49:55 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

I’ve seen young locals in Afghanistan harvest scorpian poison glands, dry them, crush them and smoke them.

What lengths people go to in order to numb their senses! Ozzy explained it best when he said people do this because they don’t like who the are. He went on to state that if he like who he was, he wouldn’t have spent so much money on crap that he drank, snorted or injected to alter his perceptions.


11 posted on 06/22/2011 11:50:06 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: AustralianConservative
From the Merck Manual

Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit drug; it is typically used episodically without evidence of social or psychologic dysfunction.

Let's not get all in a tither.
12 posted on 06/22/2011 11:50:12 PM PDT by andyk (Interstate <> Intrastate)
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To: alexander_busek

You “have the right” to use a cordless drill on your forhead. Just sayin...


13 posted on 06/22/2011 11:51:32 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: alexander_busek

The science is very clear and saying that alcohol is like pot (a falsehood) and then pretending that two wrongs make a right is counterproductive. The brain imaging technology is very clear.


14 posted on 06/22/2011 11:52:31 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: Grizzled Bear

Points taken. It’s funny how the radical anti-American movement was dominated by potheads too.


15 posted on 06/22/2011 11:54:54 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

Someone on THIS thread PLEASE tell me how many deaths marijuana (illegal) has caused... and how many deaths alcohol (legal) has caused??????????????????????????????????


16 posted on 06/22/2011 11:55:36 PM PDT by freepersup (Today, we raise our glasses of spirits and mugs of ale high- to Budge.)
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To: andyk

Thanks for the propaganda dude. Let’s also ignore the brain imaging scans and studies from Oxford.When potheads get off welfare, produce some real studies, and stop trashing businesses in my area, then I’ll relax. I’m not comfortable with feral anarchists.


17 posted on 06/22/2011 11:57:26 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: Grizzled Bear
Poison Ivy is also a natural weed. Let's smoke some, right after we finish this delicious Night Shade salad!

I double dog dare you to wipe your butt with some poison ivy. It's a plant and so is Marijuana. Go for it.

For the record: I smoked half a joint, once in my entire life, about 15 years ago. Period.

Now, to your objection: I am not advocating the consumption of marijuana, nor do I argue that - because it is "natural" - it must be healthful. Alcohol is likewise "natural" - but I wouldn't give it to my 3-year-old.

Rather, I am arguing that we should not 1) spend BILLIONS to incarcerate hundreds of thousands of petty minor "users" and that 2) the mere EXISTENCE of the drug-law enforcement organizations is ominous.

The "natural" argument (which is NOT my argument) is, I think, that marijuana is part of the natural world in which we live, like rocks, the air we breathe, trees, and roadside weeds, and is thus (theoretically) omnipresent and "mundane," and that it is therefore intellectually ingenuous to classify it (legally) like some artificial substance created in underground labs and which didn't even EXIST until some Swiss chemist formulated it.

Regards,

18 posted on 06/22/2011 11:57:56 PM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: alexander_busek

Do you think it should be taxed?


19 posted on 06/23/2011 12:01:36 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: savagesusie
If we had no welfare state...then fine, have no laws against marijuana...BUT since we DO have government interference in all aspects of life we can’t legalize it because then they do not suffer the consequence for their actions.

So, since we do have a 1984-style, Big Brother and/or Nanny State constantly infringing upon our freedoms "for our own good," rather than changing THAT, you would rather accept blatantly unfair, heavy-handed, INEFFECTIVE anti-drug laws?

It is funny how these leftists demand no cigarette smoking and vilify it at every chance they get....yet they glorify marijuana when the smoke is more toxic to the lungs.

Ad Hominem Fallacy! I, a dyed-in-the-wool Conservative who thinks that it should be allowed to carry hunting rifles openly, etc., assert that marijuana is perhaps as "evil" as nicotine, or as dangerous as even alcohol... But that we should revert to the situation we had in the late-19th century, when it was NOT illegal to grow, possess, and smoke hemp. Heck: It is well documented that both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were hemp farmers (though it is not recorded how often they "lit up").

Regards,

20 posted on 06/23/2011 12:04:28 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: freepersup

“Someone on THIS thread PLEASE tell me how many deaths marijuana (illegal) has caused... and how many deaths alcohol (legal) has caused??????????????????????????????????”

Someone needs to get off the couch and read medical literature. Don’t depend on others – because I’m personally sick of repeating the same old studies to people who have already made up their minds, irrespective of the evidence. Schizophrenia hurts families.

But in any case, I love the two wrongs make a right logic. Someone also needs to remember that this isn’t just about death but narcissistic potheads making life difficult for others. I’ve lived in Europe, and the soft on drugs culture is a disaster. It creates more welfare dependency and crowded hospitals.


21 posted on 06/23/2011 12:04:34 AM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: andyk

Yet almost all of us have witnessed the instant change into pot uniformity by teens, over, and over, and over, and over, it is the defining symptom and identifier of pot usage.

A teen starts smoking pot, and instantly it is as though a pod released under their bed and put the pot worm into their brain that makes them all cookie cutter copies of each other.

When we recognize a young physically healthy pothead, it is because we can recognize that brain change, their pothead mentality, their world view, their politics, their music, and again, the melding of their mind and personality into the smoky commonality of being one with all stoners.

Cannabis is doing something that they haven’t measured yet.


22 posted on 06/23/2011 12:05:41 AM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
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To: AustralianConservative

As soon as the demonization of smoking a cigarette quits...I’ll think about legalisation. (I am not a smoker, btw). Taxing pot could be very lucrative..but I want pictures and warnings and massive restrictions.

As soon as Libertarians run on the “L” ticket as opposed to the “R” ticket...


23 posted on 06/23/2011 12:05:47 AM PDT by berdie (qill)
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To: alexander_busek

Number 1, number2 and number 3. You are dealing with kids who usually begin experimentation well, when they are kids. Kids don’t know the consequences of their actions in a lot of cases so why enable them? It’s up to the parents. Yes, I said it’s up to the parents.


24 posted on 06/23/2011 12:06:00 AM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: AustralianConservative
Consultant psychiatrist Dr Chantelle Simmons said: “Cannabis use has been shown to be associated with difficulties in thought processes in 15-20 year olds.

Right, this is a very big concern because there's a big push on to legalize it for 15 year olds /sarc. Marijuana will not be legalized, and we will continue pouring billions of tax dollars that we don't have into the futile war to combat it's use. But if it ever were legalized, it's inconceivable that the age of use would be under 21 - the legal drinking age.
25 posted on 06/23/2011 12:06:08 AM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: LukeL

how about magic mushrooms?


26 posted on 06/23/2011 12:06:09 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: alexander_busek

“Going to a disco and staying out until 5 a.m. when you have to work the next day is likewise “harmful.” Hey! Let’s make that illegal, too!”

No, it has it’s benefits. It releases stress, provides exercise, lowers the blood pressure. . .

all kinds of bennies to the disco till 5 am.

And the benefits of smoking pot are. . .


27 posted on 06/23/2011 12:07:15 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: AustralianConservative

“Socialists love drug legalization. It creates dependence on government.”

It makes our young men passive idiots.

Just the way the commies want them.

I hate to see a stoned young man. It is just sickening.


28 posted on 06/23/2011 12:08:13 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: AustralianConservative

The Commissioners of The Global Commission on Drug Policy:

» Asma Jahangir
- human rights activist, former UN Special Rapporteur on Arbitrary, Extrajudicial and Summary Executions, Pakistan

» Carlos Fuentes
- writer and public intellectual, Mexico

» César Gaviria
- former President of Colômbia

» Ernesto Zedillo
- former President of México

» Fernando Henrique Cardoso
- former President of Brazil (chair)

» George Papandreou
- Prime Minister of Greece

» George Shultz
- former Secretary of State, United States (honorary chair)

» Javier Solana
- former European Union High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy, Spain

» John Whitehead
- banker and civil servant, chair of the World Trade Center Memorial, United States

» Kofi Annan
- former Secretary General of the United Nations, Ghana

» Louise Arbour
- former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, president of the International Crisis Group, Canada

» Maria Cattaui
- Member of the Board, Petroplus Holdings; former Secretary-General of the International Chamber of Commerce, Switzerland

» Marion Caspers-Merk
- former State Secretary at the German Federal Ministry of Health, Germany

» Mario Vargas Llosa
- writer and public intellectual, Peru

» Michel Kazatchkine
- executive director of the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, France

» Paul Volcker
- former Chairman of the US Federal Reserve and of the Economic Recovery Board, US

» Richard Branson
- entrepreneur, advocate for social causes, founder of the Virgin Group, cofounder of The Elders, United Kingdom

» Ruth Dreifuss
- former President of Switzerland and Minister of Home Affairs

» Thorvald Stoltenberg
- former Minister of Foreign Affairs and UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Norway


29 posted on 06/23/2011 12:09:22 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: AustralianConservative
The science is very clear and saying that alcohol is like pot (a falsehood) and then pretending that two wrongs make a right is counterproductive. The brain imaging technology is very clear.

I never claimed that the neurological and other medical effects of marijuana were similar to those of alcohol.

Heck, I never even used the word "like!"

I have compared the relative hazardousness of the two. One could likewise the relative dangers (to health, well-being, or societal stability) of tightrope-walking and smoking banana peels; that is legitimate. My point is that a substance which people voluntarily ingest should not be illegal merely because it is "bad." Rather, YOUR standpoint that of a nanny-state mentality.

Regards,

30 posted on 06/23/2011 12:09:32 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: berdie

Pot is a weed that doesn’t need any refining, once legal, it will be free and everywhere, no one will be paying tax.

Making a Marlboro, a Bourbon, a Beer is complicated and is meant to please the palate.


31 posted on 06/23/2011 12:11:23 AM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Looks like a lot of UN and UN connected people there.


32 posted on 06/23/2011 12:12:03 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: nickcarraway
Do you think it should be taxed?

What a Red Herring and/or diversionary tactic!

Bubblegum is taxed! Disposable panty liners are taxed! Groucho Max fake glasses and mustaches are taxed! What do you think?

Regards,

33 posted on 06/23/2011 12:12:18 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: Persevero

The Middle East has depended on cannabis for thousands of years, and it shows.


34 posted on 06/23/2011 12:13:30 AM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
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To: AustralianConservative

I am against Drugs and I feel many if not most State Governments should control theses addictive substances.

But it is nonetheless my firmly held position that the Federal Government of the United States is NOT constitutionally empowered to prohibit a plan, drug, or any other substance within the boundaries of any State.

To that end I see FDA, ATF, and DEA agents as nothing more then criminals that should be arrested, charged, and shunned as such.


35 posted on 06/23/2011 12:14:00 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: AustralianConservative

Try applying YOUR paranoia to hashbean420 on youtube... it doesn’t wash (correlate) dig?

YOU DIDN’T ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!

I don’t fear the truth. I’ve been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.

Oh, and by the way, I’ve been an upstanding citizen, in my community AND in the service to my country having served in the US Army and in the US Air Force.

In closing (once again) YOU DIDN’T ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!


36 posted on 06/23/2011 12:15:03 AM PDT by freepersup (Today, we raise our glasses of spirits and mugs of ale high- to Budge.)
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To: AustralianConservative

You think the Merck manual is propaganda. Wow.


37 posted on 06/23/2011 12:15:25 AM PDT by andyk (Interstate <> Intrastate)
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To: AustralianConservative
But in any case, I love the two wrongs make a right logic.

Indeed! Your really ARE a proponent of the "two-wrongs-make-a-right" logic! You understand that the nanny/welfare state is morally abhorrent and contraproductive, and yet you believe that that justifies persecuting people (many of whom AREN'T on welfare) who smoke a leave!

Regards,

38 posted on 06/23/2011 12:16:00 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: freepersup

If you were caught using pot in the US Army and in the US Air Force they would kick you out.


39 posted on 06/23/2011 12:16:51 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: alexander_busek

I agree with you. I had friends that smoked pot in high school, and I had friends that drank. Today I know alot of dysfunctional drunks but not one dysfunctional pot head. I know many that took a little something something else from the drug dealer and have been worthless since. Pot isn’t something I would want my children to use but I also think its crazy to lock anyone up for it. The reason you will lose your kids to hard drugs isn’t the pot so much as it is the guy selling the pot also sells the hard stuff. Most kids would just stop at pot if he didn’t. To say anything else is to not know what you’re talking about. I grew up in a hood, I’ve seen it a thousand times. If it was at the liquor store it would be the end of the chain like booze. Legalizing pot would truly hurt the remaining drug business and strangely enough stem a crap load of illegal immigration troubles. OK let it fly.


40 posted on 06/23/2011 12:18:01 AM PDT by enduserindy (Conservative Dead Head)
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To: alexander_busek

This just shows you how little you have thought about it. I will not support any laws that permits the government to tax drugs. If you can’t figure it, that’s your problem.


41 posted on 06/23/2011 12:19:03 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: AustralianConservative
Dr Simmons added that studies had shown that marijuana use caused higher rates of depressive illness in adult women – four times the rate of depression found in non-users.

Teenage marijuana smokers have also been found to be less likely to complete high school and more likely to make poor career and life choices.

Correlation does not equal causation. Perhaps people prone to depression and making poor choices are more likely to self-medicate with pot, alcohol, tobacco and so forth.

42 posted on 06/23/2011 12:20:15 AM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: savagesusie
..BUT since we DO have government interference in all aspects of life we can’t legalize it because then they do not suffer the consequence for their actions.

What you are saying is that you accept the welfare state we have.

43 posted on 06/23/2011 12:23:22 AM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: berdie
As soon as the demonization of smoking a cigarette quits...I’ll think about legalisation.

Why are you making your thinking - and presumably, also your ACTING - against something you imply you realize is UNJUST contingent upon the consistent behavior of others?

What you wrote is like saying "I'll think about allowing Blacks to drink out of the same water fountain as soon as 'they' stop [insert any other arbitrary morally reprehensible condition in the world]."

And "demonization" is not to be compared to "illegalization." Getting cited and having to pay a $200 fine for smoking in a restaurant is NOT comparable with being thrown in the pokey and getting anally raped because you were sitting at home smoking some marijuana you grew in your own flower box.

Regards,

44 posted on 06/23/2011 12:23:29 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Correct. But, I could conduct myself in a flamboyant homosexual lifestyle and be protected.

YOU didn't ANSWER my question either.

Nice try. Not really...

45 posted on 06/23/2011 12:24:22 AM PDT by freepersup (Today, we raise our glasses of spirits and mugs of ale high- to Budge.)
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To: Grizzled Bear
You “have the right” to use a cordless drill on your forhead. Just sayin...

Then the answer is to make cordless drills illegal. /s

46 posted on 06/23/2011 12:25:08 AM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: Persevero
No, it has it’s benefits. It releases stress, provides exercise, lowers the blood pressure. . . all kinds of bennies to the disco till 5 am. And the benefits of smoking pot are. . .

The point is that it is debatable, i.e., there are no objective arguments to be made for/against going to the disco, slamming your head against the floor, drinking Jim Beam, or smoking pot.

It should therefore be left to the INDIVIDUAL to decide what is best for him!

Regards,

47 posted on 06/23/2011 12:25:43 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: TigersEye
Correlation does not equal causation. Perhaps people prone to depression and making poor choices are more likely to self-medicate with pot, alcohol, tobacco and so forth.

If youngsters were seeking to "self-medicate" with marijuana then they would be doing better.

What you are talking about is self-destruct.

48 posted on 06/23/2011 12:28:26 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: ansel12
Pot is a weed that doesn’t need any refining, once legal, it will be free and everywhere, no one will be paying tax. Making a Marlboro, a Bourbon, a Beer is complicated and is meant to please the palate.

Growing tobacco is no more difficult than growing marijuana. In fact, it was so simple that even the Indians - who never even invented the WHEEL - could do it!

Regards,

49 posted on 06/23/2011 12:28:48 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: ansel12

I don’t know a lot about growing pot, but what makes sense to me is that growing any crop incurs expense. Curing and selling also incurs expense (can you say hydroponic), much like the production and distribution of cigarettes or alchohol. The ingredidients of cigarettes and alchohol are natural in the beginning.

If you are talking about growing a few plants on your patio..do you think it would stop at that?

It would turn into large fields and Uncle Bob’s Pot Shop. It would be taxed. With many different flavors..maybe even menthol, lol.


50 posted on 06/23/2011 12:30:58 AM PDT by berdie (qill)
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