Iran’s 2,500-Year War with the West - The lessons of our long history of engagement with Persia

NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE ^ | March 30, 2011 | Jim Lacey

[Oratam]

This incidentally is exactly counter to the modern stupor of media, and leftist, mesmerism.

How close is this to Orwell's "groupthink"? In NYC, the unthinking regurgitation of DNC talking points is comical as it comes from people who regard themselves as independent thinkers. They're sheep!

[nuconvert]

“The views in this article are the author’s own and do not in any way represent the views or positions of the Department of Defense or any of its members.”

That’s good to hear......cuz it’s crap

[SunkenCiv]

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[Pining_4_TX]

Here we go again - the neverending drum beat for war. Before we invaded Iraq, all you ever heard was what a horrible threat Iraq was to the world. I still remember Condi Rice’s silly statement about not wanting to wait for a mushroom cloud.

Now it’s Iran. Well, guess what. We are broke. We are still stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan propping up the new thugs and losing good people every day. All these morons who think we need a new war should suit up and go. Our military is being stretched to the breaking point, and every time I read about another young person killed or permanently maimed, I am enraged. Just how in the hell is it in the US interest to do anything about Iran now? Oh, yeah, I know, the old mushroom cloud. BS.

[odds]

Dr James Lacey is Director War Policy & Strategy; Professor Economics and National Power, at Marine Corps War College – IOW, he is An Academic. That said, it appears that Iranian history is not his forte.

Any person w/ basic knowledge of Iranian history would know there are 2 distinct parts to that history: Pre-Islam & Post-Islam. Aside from Very few exceptions, largely, Iran, post-Islam (after Arab-Islam conquest in the 7th century AD & to date) is not comparable to what she was pre-Islam.

It would've been more appropriate for Lacey to choose post-Islam references/context to present his argument; there are a couple of more relevant examples to today's situation w/ Iran. Moreover, the regime ruling Iran since 1979 is in a league of its own. Not to mention that today’s geopolitics, particularly in the ME & North African region, are not the same as 2500 yrs ago.

Overall, James Lacey make a couple of valid points. But, there are better ways of arguing against continuous Western support & appeasement of the regime, which has been occupying Iran for the past 32 yrs. Lacey’s reference to history of 2500 yrs ago, in a selective & biased fashion, is not one of them.

For instance, Lacey could also write about Alexander’s invasion & later the Seleucid Empire (One and Two), which also ruled Iran. It was the Seleucids who gradually tried to force Hellenization upon the Jewish people in their territory by outlawing Judaism. This eventually led to the revolt of the Jews under Seleucid control - (tho Lacey has the audacity to criticize Cyrus the Great!). Equally, the Seleucids also tried to expand their Empire into Greece & began their own War with Rome.

[rmlew]

Later, when Iran became the Sassanid Empire, its constant attacks on Byzantium so weakened that great empire that it was incapable of resisting invading Arab armies fighting under the banner of Islam.
Over simplification. The Byzantine-Sassanid War of 602–628 left both empires bankrupt and spent. This was a huge war, which crupled a third empire, the Gok Turkut. The Byzantines and WEstern Turkut fought two wars as allies against the Sassanid Persian and Avar Khanate. By the end of the war, everything from the Ferangia Valley to Pannonia and south to the Nile was in shambles. The Muslim Arabs took advantage in the south, quickly overrunning all of the Persian Empire. As the Gog Turkut collapse, the Khazars went from being subjects to rulers in the western half as the Chinese moved in from the East. The Muslims swept in from the south leading to a century of Khazar-Caliphate wars. While the Gokturkut partially re-established itself 30 years later, it was then conquered by the Muslims and the Chinese. Between 715 and 751 the Chinese and Caliphate fought 2 wars ending in stalemate. To blame this of the Persians is silly. The Byzantine Empire interfered in Persian politics and the Persians responded, prompting a war.

Then, as part of (or in alliance with) the Islamic caliphate, Iran provided troops and treasure to aid in an almost constant assault on the West.
For 600 or so years, right up till the Safavid dynasty took over Persia rebelled against the Ottoman Caliphs and secured the division by making Shia Islam the state sect. Everything is complicated.

[SatinDoll]

“...owing to Neocon idiots for the first time in history PERSIA, INDIA, RUSSIA, CHINA are united against common enemy.”

They are not united - far from it.

This statement is so weird, then I noticed you’re Canadian. Some of my best friends are from Canada, but they’re poorly educated about the Middle East.

[muawiyah]

(completing the story) In the end the Persians relaxed a bit and sent their only recently "Persianized" Jewish leadership elite back to Jerusalem to deal with the more primitive Westerners.

After some length of time the West adopted Christianity and Persian standards prevailed over the world West of the Himalayas.

Greco-Roman thoughts on governance and the proper position of religion in life were driven into a small corner of the otherwise desolate regions of the Arabian peninsula. They returned with a vengeance in the 7th Century and nothing has been the same since.

(NOTE: which makes us "ancient Persia" and "al Quaeda" the Greco-Roman world, so be careful how you pick sides.)

[muawiyah]

It was always about Iran ~ which we now have surrounded.

[odds]

Jim Lacey wrote: Then, as part of (or in alliance with) the Islamic caliphate, Iran provided troops and treasure to aid in an almost constant assault on the West.

You said: For 600 or so years, right up till the Safavid dynasty took over Persia rebelled against the Ottoman Caliphs and secured the division by making Shia Islam the state sect. Everything is complicated.

You're right, it is complicated. Unfortunately, Lacey makes it even more confusing by not explaining events in any detail, and by being selective & biased.

Hope I won't make it more convoluted by mentioning a few pertinent points:

Lacey is referring to Arab-Moslem Caliphate immediately after the Sassanid Empire was overthrown in a critical, huge & bloody battle w/ Moslem-Arabs in Nahavand in the 7th century AD; it took place after Mohammad's death.

Following abovementioned event, 3 main Arab-Moslem Caliphates, directly, ruled Iran for nearly 2 centuries (Patriarchal, Ummayyad & Abbassid – in that order). The Iranian dynasty (post-Arab invasion of Iran) who, essentially, were moslem converts & can be considered a proxy of Abbassid’s Arab Caliphs, were the Samanids - they ruled for about 180 yrs. I think, it is the Samanids that Jim Lacey is referring to in terms of “alliance with Islamic caliphate”. It was also the Samanids who took Sunni Islam further beyond Iranian borders.

The Turkish Ottoman Empire Caliphate did not come into play until 16th century AD.

You're also correct, Shia Islam became the official state religion in Iran during the Turkic speaking Safavid dynasty in the latter part of 16th century AD. Shia Islam was forced on Iranians by the Safavids. Prior to that & for approx. 1000 yrs, Iran was by majority as Sunni country.

A key learning point from that period of history, IMO, is: had the Byzantines & Persians put their differences aside, supported one another & united against the vile Moslem-Arabs, the Bedouin Arabs, most probably, would’ve been defeated, or at least prevented from spreading their atrocious ideology thereafter; indirectly or through new converts to Islam. INSTEAD, Jim Lacey, in this article at least, attacks pre-Islam leaders of Iran.

A fundamental question remains: What is Western Civilization? It surely doesn’t refer only to Greeks or Romans of yester years. Nor purely to democracy, depending how democracy is defined to begin with. (I can give many examples of how “Western countries” did not achieve democracy easily, nor quickly; some are still not quite as “democratic” in their practices as we'd like to think they are).

However, Western Civilization is fundamentally meant to be about Christianity; or those countries who by majority are Christians. IOW, it is about Religion. And, Mullahs’ Regime & the mullahs in Iran, along w/ the Saudis et al (regardless of shia or sunni) are the epitome & center of that clash between Christianity & Islam (not pre-Islam "Persian Civilization"). Although, in our infinite lack of wisdom, our Western, representative democratic gov’ts support those in the Islamic world who hold sway, influence & power over the masses there.

[Daveinyork]

What percentage of the Athenian population was eligible to participate?

[Pining_4_TX]

You’re kidding, right? We have Iran surrounded the same way Custer had all those Indians cornered. What are going to do, send in the Boy Scouts?

[Siena Dreaming]

Don’t know.

[Daveinyork]

I seem to remember from a history class that it was about 5%.

[Daveinyork]

Who’s talking about war with Iran. We’re just reviewing historical facts. I’ve been of the opinion that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could have been used strategically to squeeze Iran, which is the real source of most terrorism since 1979, but Bush was too interested in nation building, and fighting wars to show how nice we Americans are.

We should have been fighting to show that we don’t take no sh@t.

[Siena Dreaming]

A good start, though I question if it was quite that low.

Democratic principles started in Greece, spread to Rome, and eventually came down to us...a good heritage.

Persia's sytem of Gov't was inferior.

[Daveinyork]

Peerhaps the idea of democracy came to us from Athens, but the idea of the rule of law, which is at least as important, comes from the Torah, the idea that rulers may not use their position to enrich themselves, and that they are subject to the same laws as the ruled.

[DTA]

>>>>>>They are not united - far from it.This statement is so weird, then I noticed you’re Canadian. Some of my best friends are from Canada, but they’re poorly educated about the Middle East.<<<<<<<

True, many Canadians either have no clue or have Polyanna world view, perhaps it has something to do with watching 90$ of media contents coming south of the border:-)

It is true that the majority of Canadians have no idea of NATO involvement in Afghanistan. Ask any Canadian whether China borders with Afghanistan, and you'll get a blank stare.

But China knows why NATO is in Afghanistan.

Average Canuck has never heard Mad Allbright's ramble that it is not fair that Russia has Siberia only for herself. But Ruskies have taken note.

So, China arms Persia, gives money to Russia for next-generation military research, Russia in turn builds Indian Navy and provides current generation hardware to India, China and Persia. And India and China represent a wide manufacturing base to churn out Russian hardware.

China and India are adversaries, China and Russia are adversaries, Persia is no friend to either of them, yet, they work together and brings others to their scheme. Together, they build BRIC economic block expanding outside of Euroasia. Check the south Atlantic shipping routes China plans to establish to bypass Panama and Suez choke.

Why? Discples of Leo Strauss gave them forewarning. The fact is, Cecil Rhodes design for world domination is going down the toilet. Victorians have finally lost.

Attack on Libya is the last attempt.

America could have profited from that, but did not. Owing to the stupid and greedy neocons.

I am not happy at all because of that.

[Siena Dreaming]

Peerhaps the idea of democracy came to us from Athens

Yes, of course it did.

[muawiyah]

We are perfectly positioned to tag any of their big stuff.