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To: neverdem
Later, when Iran became the Sassanid Empire, its constant attacks on Byzantium so weakened that great empire that it was incapable of resisting invading Arab armies fighting under the banner of Islam.
Over simplification. The Byzantine-Sassanid War of 602–628 left both empires bankrupt and spent. This was a huge war, which crupled a third empire, the Gok Turkut. The Byzantines and WEstern Turkut fought two wars as allies against the Sassanid Persian and Avar Khanate. By the end of the war, everything from the Ferangia Valley to Pannonia and south to the Nile was in shambles. The Muslim Arabs took advantage in the south, quickly overrunning all of the Persian Empire. As the Gog Turkut collapse, the Khazars went from being subjects to rulers in the western half as the Chinese moved in from the East. The Muslims swept in from the south leading to a century of Khazar-Caliphate wars. While the Gokturkut partially re-established itself 30 years later, it was then conquered by the Muslims and the Chinese. Between 715 and 751 the Chinese and Caliphate fought 2 wars ending in stalemate. To blame this of the Persians is silly. The Byzantine Empire interfered in Persian politics and the Persians responded, prompting a war.

Then, as part of (or in alliance with) the Islamic caliphate, Iran provided troops and treasure to aid in an almost constant assault on the West.
For 600 or so years, right up till the Safavid dynasty took over Persia rebelled against the Ottoman Caliphs and secured the division by making Shia Islam the state sect. Everything is complicated.

26 posted on 04/01/2011 10:12:24 PM PDT by rmlew (No Blood for Sarkozy's re-election and Union for the Mediterranean)
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To: rmlew
Jim Lacey wrote: Then, as part of (or in alliance with) the Islamic caliphate, Iran provided troops and treasure to aid in an almost constant assault on the West.

You said: For 600 or so years, right up till the Safavid dynasty took over Persia rebelled against the Ottoman Caliphs and secured the division by making Shia Islam the state sect. Everything is complicated.

You're right, it is complicated. Unfortunately, Lacey makes it even more confusing by not explaining events in any detail, and by being selective & biased.

Hope I won't make it more convoluted by mentioning a few pertinent points:

Lacey is referring to Arab-Moslem Caliphate immediately after the Sassanid Empire was overthrown in a critical, huge & bloody battle w/ Moslem-Arabs in Nahavand in the 7th century AD; it took place after Mohammad's death.

Following abovementioned event, 3 main Arab-Moslem Caliphates, directly, ruled Iran for nearly 2 centuries (Patriarchal, Ummayyad & Abbassid – in that order). The Iranian dynasty (post-Arab invasion of Iran) who, essentially, were moslem converts & can be considered a proxy of Abbassid’s Arab Caliphs, were the Samanids - they ruled for about 180 yrs. I think, it is the Samanids that Jim Lacey is referring to in terms of “alliance with Islamic caliphate”. It was also the Samanids who took Sunni Islam further beyond Iranian borders.

The Turkish Ottoman Empire Caliphate did not come into play until 16th century AD.

You're also correct, Shia Islam became the official state religion in Iran during the Turkic speaking Safavid dynasty in the latter part of 16th century AD. Shia Islam was forced on Iranians by the Safavids. Prior to that & for approx. 1000 yrs, Iran was by majority as Sunni country.

A key learning point from that period of history, IMO, is: had the Byzantines & Persians put their differences aside, supported one another & united against the vile Moslem-Arabs, the Bedouin Arabs, most probably, would’ve been defeated, or at least prevented from spreading their atrocious ideology thereafter; indirectly or through new converts to Islam. INSTEAD, Jim Lacey, in this article at least, attacks pre-Islam leaders of Iran.

A fundamental question remains: What is Western Civilization? It surely doesn’t refer only to Greeks or Romans of yester years. Nor purely to democracy, depending how democracy is defined to begin with. (I can give many examples of how “Western countries” did not achieve democracy easily, nor quickly; some are still not quite as “democratic” in their practices as we'd like to think they are).

However, Western Civilization is fundamentally meant to be about Christianity; or those countries who by majority are Christians. IOW, it is about Religion. And, Mullahs’ Regime & the mullahs in Iran, along w/ the Saudis et al (regardless of shia or sunni) are the epitome & center of that clash between Christianity & Islam (not pre-Islam "Persian Civilization"). Although, in our infinite lack of wisdom, our Western, representative democratic gov’ts support those in the Islamic world who hold sway, influence & power over the masses there.

30 posted on 04/02/2011 6:45:21 AM PDT by odds
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