Skip to comments.About Iran, democracy, Islam, Christianity and ourselves
Posted on 06/26/2009 3:01:12 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Islam is, undeniably, a major source of inspiration for terrorism, oppression and barbarism.
Many would even say the very nature of Islam is nothing but sheer evil and among these gainsayers of Islam we find plenty of well educated and highly literate individuals.
Personally speaking, I can't say that I've grown more tolerant of Islam the more educated I've become.
But could Muslim nations that today are run by advocates of pure evil eventually be transformed into well functioning democracies?
Will Iran ever become a true democracy?
Will Saudi Arabia?
- Or will Islam hinder such a development?
I'd like to think there, actually, is some kind of force within every man so strong it could resist any kind of evil, even if this spirit, seemingly, is possible to subjugate year after year after year, by megalomaniac tyrants.
I'd really like to think this is the case and so far, I've been proven right time after time by history books I've read as well as events of my own lifetime.
If I'm right, Islamist teachings are indeed contrary to human nature, but also inferior to true and basic human spirit.
Religions are important, in many ways, but while God alone is God and God is the sole creator, only man can decide his own future here on Earth.
The validity of this perspective was not fully understood until the days of Florentines like Pico della Mirandola and (I'd also include) Leonardo da Vinci.
Still, many Westerners of today do not realize that the veritable, fully existing, freedom of man - whether we deny ourselves or other human beings this marvelous gift - is the utmost expression of God's love.
If men do evil they can not blame God, but if they do good they do the will of God.
Is there a "will" of Christianity and a "will" of Islam?
Even from a politically correct perspective, Muhammad must be viewed both as a military commander and a religious leader while Jesus, on the other hand, was 100% a religious leader.
This says more about Islam than about Christianity.
While we Christians acknowledge the fact that our religion often has been used as a guise for evil and the history of our religion itself is blood soaked, this tells us little about the teachings of Jesus Christ per se.
Sooner, it reveals a lot about how people who call themselves Christians have managed to observe the Two Commandments of Love.
Let's linger on the matter of Renaissance thinkers like Leonardo and della Mirandola for a while. In his famous "The Praise of Folly", Erasmus of Rotterdam, one of the most prominent Christian thinkers of this epoch, reminded humanity that on Judgment Day, the Lord will ask us this and only this question; "How did thou obey the two commandments which I gave thee?"
Islamic teachings on the other hand, while paying tribute to this core of the Judeo-Christian heritage (at least by explicit words), instructs its followers to conquer the soil of the "infidels" and either convert them or turn them into second rate citizens.
Muslims often claim we Christians have done the same during the age of Colonialism, but;
1. The Bible didn't instruct us to.
2. The people who were exposed to these wrongdoings mostly lived in societies that were primitive and brutish beyond belief (even if that is no excuse for slavery etc)
3. Christianity has apologized for these atrocities while Islam still hasn't condemned 9/11.
But I'd still say many Iranians, especially young, comparatively well educated ones have more in common with the political believes of us Westerners than Iran's Guardian Council.
Most of these protesters probably call themselves "Muslims", but that doesn't mean we Christians can't co-exist with them.
Ideologies matter a lot, but labels do not necessarily do so. Especially not those which people place on persons they have nothing but vague impressions of.
I'm a member of the largest Lutheran church of Earth, The Church of Sweden, but what does that tell anyone about myself?
I oppose plenty of things "my" church (which I was baptized into as a child), explicitly stands for, but I also feel there are intrinsic bonds between it and my identity as a Swedish patriot.
Sweden, Germany, Norway, Denmark and USA are examples of countries that, to a large extent, are prosperous and free today because of what a Lutheran like Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden accomplished in the 17th century in Europe, but in no way thanks to what the Church of Sweden is today.
Regardless of politically correct pastors of The Church of Sweden (who usually don't hesitate to praise homosexuality, mass Muslim immigration to Sweden etc), I and my ancestors will forever remain a part of the endeavors of Gustavus Adolphus the Great, efforts which eternally go hand in hand with Lutheranism, whatever false PC moral its, temporary, spokesmen here on Earth preach.
Likewise, the children of Islam, which in many ways is an usurper religion in relation to the Judeo-Christian culture, are not completely lost just because they happen to bow down to Mecca.
This optimism of mine could, of course, be viewed as unrealistic, to say the least.
But being a Scandinavian aged 39, I'm able of comparing things like what the eastern parts of my continent looked like when I was a teenager and how life is like there today - even if people in this part of Europe don't exactly live like the jet set of inner London. At least, they own cars, live in decent homes and above all can speak their minds freely.
Islam is a threat towards Christian Civilization, but if Islam, in general, develops according to the ideals of the brave Iranians who daily are willing to risk their lives in the struggle for true freedom, it will become less of a threat.
There is not only hope, there is reason for hope.
You said — Islam is a threat towards Christian Civilization, but if Islam, in general, develops according to the ideals of the brave Iranians who daily are willing to risk their lives in the struggle for true freedom, it will become less of a threat.
Right there is the problem. Islam has it *hard-coded* into their “DNA” (original materials and the *authoritative* Prophet Mohammed) that it’s a *governmental system* and not merely a religion.
In addition *absolutely no contradiction* of Mohammed is allowed. If you do that, you’re pretty much *dead*. They’ll kill you.
So, it’s *hard-coded* in its DNA and if you try to challenge anything from the prophet, you’re dead meat, right now.
That *mandates* that any adherent to the evil, oppressive and violent governmental idealogy of Islam (namely, it’s a “governmental system” and not a religion) — is forced to maintain exactly what Mohammed maintained and demanded and exactly what the Koran maintains, too.
And keep in mind, that the Koran has the principle of “abrogation” in that the most recent passages of the Koran cancel out the older ones (it’s the “older ones” that many deceiving Muslims quote, but they’ve been *abrogated*...).
SO.., no, there’s no transformation of Islam as that evil, oppressive, violent idealogy of governance. There is only a *transformation* of an individual in *leaving Islam* — there’s your *only hope* in all this.
As long as a person stays an adherent to Islam, they are going to be enslaved by it and there will never be a “way out”. The way out is *leaving* that evil system, and that’s it...
>Islam is a threat towards Christian Civilization, but if Islam, in general, develops according to the ideals of the brave Iranians who daily are willing to risk their lives in the struggle for true freedom, it will become less of a threat.<
Are you suggesting that were the Iranian people to overthrow the mullahs, they would abruptly tolerate non-muslim religions in their country? And so would Saudi Arabia and the Sudan and other of these hellholes? Get real.
Intolerance is the heart of Islam’s teaching.
Kind of like Judaism. Maybe it's the Semitic World that sees things that way.
You said — Intolerance is the heart of Islams teaching.
Like you, I used to be ready to believe that maybe Muslims could change. In the books I read, there seemed to be plenty of noble and honorable Muslims.
But as you also point out, one difference between Jesus and Mohammed is that Mohammed was a warrior. In fact, more than that, Mohammed was just plain evil.
So, what do you do about a religion whose most basic claim is that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet?” Mohammed is the chosen prophet of Allah. The greatest and the last prophet. He is the model upon whom all Muslims are expected to base their lives, just as Christians are expected to follow Jesus.
So, how do you deal with the basic and irresolvable problem that Mohammed was a murderer, a slave taker, a rapist, a pederast, an oath breaker, a liar, and abundantly evil? How do Muslims deal with this? Apparently by imitating Mohammed.
Although few will admit it, slavery in our modern world was basically a Muslim project. It died out in Christendom during the middle ages. But Muslims continued to practice it. They took every chance they could get to enslave white Europeans, and they reintroduced slavery into the modern world when European explorers went out and encountered the slave trade in Africa, which was already a going business.
There is slavery all over the world today—in Muslim countries—although few will admit it. And you still have such brutal customs as stoning and beheading women for the “crime” of being forcibly raped. The rapists are not punished, the women are.
None of this is a distortion or perversion of Islam. This is what Islam teaches. This is what Mohammed did. And there is no way to change that.
You said — Kind of like Judaism. Maybe it’s the Semitic World that sees things that way.
There is scant similarity here, especially in terms of the “evil nature”, the “oppression”, the “conquering the world by violence” and so on....
Those are *tangible* and real life things. In other words, you get oppressed in real life, right now. You will be the recipient of violence and also death to you, if you resist (amply demonstrated over and over again).
Now, when you look at Judaism, there can be a future “kingdom” where the Messiah rules the world, but that’s not now, and neither are they lopping off heads, and they are not violently overthrowing other nations, in order to make the whole world part of Judaism...
I can’t see any comparison between Judaism and Islam.
I might also make note that Judaism would let its Arab (and Iranian neighbors alone, if they could live in peace, by themselves). But, the Islamic neighbors won’t leave Israel and the Jews alone until they’ve destroyed Israel and kill all the Jews. I would say that represents a *huge gulf* of difference between the two...
For democracy to work and for a democratic system to produce liberty as its result depends upon two things.
First, it requires a certain level of moral development. Self-government, the ability to govern oneself is a moral condition. It is not necessary that everyone in the society be capable of governing their own lives, but there must be a critical mass, a preponderance of people who can and who wish to.
And, secondly, there must be a level of respect for one’s neighbor that is inculcated in the society, there must be a certain level of tolerance and trust in the overall good will of ones fellow citizens.
Absent these two things, the society is not capable of being free, doesn’t want it, and indeed will fear it. And probably with good reason.
These are the two hurdles that any society has to get over for a democratic system to take root. They are not impossible hurdles, but they are absolute prerequisites. And if these two break down in societies that are currently democratic, they will not remain so.
- Yes, according to theory and Islamism this beautiful feature of their religion will hinder converts and secularization.
But does it do so in reality?
I claim Islam will fail to reach world hegemony, just like Communism and Nazism did.
Because it disregards human nature.
Sooner or later, Iran will become a true democracy and I also believe it will become less Islamofascist (even if it might take some time).
This is an interesting example of how Muslim nations actually can change:
You said — Sooner or later, Iran will become a true democracy and I also believe it will become less Islamofascist
As long as it is of Islam, it won’t change. It’s now at 98% of the population being Muslim. They’ve imprisoned themselves.
Also, when the population of a country reaches a certain size, it falls to Islam’s control...
You need to take a look at these things, too... (and anyone else interested in this, too)... I posted this on another thread...
That evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam and the way of implementing it by Sharia law is already making inroads right here in this country. Were about to see a takeover of the U.S. by the evil and oppressive idealogy of the government of Islam (that is aiming for world-wide conquest and has stated that the U.S. is *on its list* to take over...)
And for those people who need some additional facts about what the evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam is doing, look at some of the following.
Theres no question about it... the enemy is *Islam* itself and the evil and oppressive and false idealogy that it perpetrates. Some say the problem is fascism (instead of the basic oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam, itself). But, that is to engage in political correctness and nothing more... and sidetracks people from the *true enemy* in this war.
In one generation well see, right here in the United States that Islam is the enemy and not fascism...
and also, this...
Islam: What the West Needs to Know - FULL LENGTH ENGLISH VERSION
and then, looking at this...
The Third Jihad (video - abridged version of film)
You can leave Iran to the Muslim devils... LOL...
- Yes I am (by the way, there are churches in some Muslim countries, so why not in a future democratic Iran too?).
I haven't been to Iran, but I've met thousands of Iranians here in Sweden who wish to have nothing to do with Islamofascism and therefore have fled their native soil (as well as sons and daughters of such people).
They get harassed and attacked by Somali “refugees” in my country who are under the influence of Saudi Arabia sponsored Imams.
Most Muslim Iranians I've met (there are also some Christian Iranians living in Sweden) in my country educate themselves, work hard, care little for the Koran, drink alcohol and eat pork. Obviously, they are rather secularized.
I'm not saying Europe and America should welcome every Muslim that agrees to have a drink and enjoy a bratwurst, but I do actually claim that if all Muslims cared as little for Islam as Westernized Iranians do, we could cooperate with Iran.
“Also, when the population of a country reaches a certain size, it falls to Islams control...”
- Saudi Arabia is the most Muslim country on Earth, still several members of its royal family have been alcoholics.
Islam is, apparently, not able of controlling even its chief ambassadors.
You said — Saudi Arabia is the most Muslim country on Earth, still several members of its royal family have been alcoholics.
Islam is, apparently, not able of controlling even its chief ambassadors.
Ummmm..., I wouldn’t have used Saudi Arabia for an example of anything “progressive” about Islam... LOL...
Historically, at least until the Ayatollahs, Iran has tolerated a Christian Armenian population that goes back centuries. Many if not most Iranian Christians are Armenian.
That tolerance changed once the nutballs took over; I would expect it to return if ever they manage to overthrow the mullahs.
But you can see the glitch in all of this. As you say, the secularized Iranians and the Christian Iranians are quite tolerant and modern in their thinking. But they have been driven from their country by the mullahs, and the fundamentalist muslims. That right there sketches the problem for us.
- Neither would I.
But obviously, Islam is unable of controlling its own subjugates.
According to UN figures in 2005, 1 out of 30 Afghanistan is either a heroin or an opium addict.
If every Muslim would behave like the Koran instructs them to, there would be a problem of gargantuan proportions to deal with for us Westerners.
In reality, many Muslims don't want Islam, don't understand what Islam teaches or limit their practice of Islam to celebrating Ramadan.
Yes, Civilization is under challenge, but if Iran could become more like Turkey (a country I have visited, contrary to Iran), that would mean good news for us - and Mankind.
You said — But obviously, Islam is unable of controlling its own subjugates.
Well, you might have missed this one... but you don’t have to control all of the people. I just finished watching one video, where they were asking a terrorist in England about controlling the women. Well, if the women didn’t do what they said they were supposed to do, then they weren’t a Muslim. And of course, if you’re not, then you can be killed, doncha know...
In other words, you control who you can, and who won’t be controlled is killed. Easy solution and that fits exactly into what they do.... (remember the stoning of women and the honor killings and the heads rolling... LOL...).
There’s no doubt about it..., it’s an evil, oppressive, devious and violent system of government. And whoever gets in their way, gets killed — Mohammed being the prime example to follow...
- You are absolutely right, but just like many Westerners of today have their own interpretation of the Bible (for instance, there are plenty of Christians who have reached the conclusion that the Bible, in fact, is not against homosexuality after all and so on), Muslims are endowed with a free will just like you and I and therefore their interpretation of Islam is up to them.
It will take time for Islam to change (alternatively wither away), but like said, Islam is against human nature and therefore it will not triumph.
“Theres no doubt about it..., its an evil, oppressive, devious and violent system of government”
- I fully agree.
But do you think humanity is so weak it will tolerate this perversion to expand its boundaries forever?.
In my country, Islam is growing stronger by the minute.
So is resistence against Islam.
Greetings from Sweden!
You said — But do you think humanity is so weak it will tolerate this perversion to expand its boundaries forever?.
Ummmm..., from the looks of it... yep...
Some sort of correction:
“Resistence” = The way certain Europeans spell the word “Resistance” after three beers and a glass of Barolo.
- From the looks of it, a $10 000 KIA could compete with a $60 000 BMW.
An additional piece of information indicates no change in Iran or those evil Muslims...
That’s the God/Magog war of Ezekiel 38/39. That’s where they are aligned with Russia and some other Muslim nations and do an invasion on Israel.
So, no..., there’s no change in Iran....
As long as those people remain Muslim, they’ll continue acting just like the Prophet Mohammed did....
The Iranians never cared about their support for Hezbollah, Hamas, the nuclear program, the threats against Israel, or the Christians being persecuted there. This is about them within Iran. “Moderate” Islam is not coming to the rescue and Turkey persecutes Christians as well.
Democracy with Muslims does not change their religious views. The only hope is to end all Muslim immigration.
The same problem has started here in America as well.
Things are going to get real ugly one day.
Good luck over there.