BLACK-GOLD BLUES Discovery backs theory oil not 'fossil fuel'

WND ^ | February 1, 2008 | By Jerome R. Corsi

[Fred Nerks]

New evidence supports premise that Earth produces endless supply

------------------

A study published in Science Magazine today presents new evidence supporting the abiotic theory for the origin of oil, which asserts oil is a natural product the Earth generates constantly rather than a "fossil fuel" derived from decaying ancient forests and dead dinosaurs.

The lead scientist on the study – Giora Proskurowski of the School of Oceanography at the University of Washington in Seattle – says the hydrogen-rich fluids venting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in the Lost City Hydrothermal Field were produced by the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in the mantle of the earth.

The abiotic theory of the origin of oil directly challenges the conventional scientific theory that hydrocarbons are organic in nature, created by the deterioration of biological material deposited millions of years ago in sedimentary rock and converted to hydrocarbons under intense heat and pressure.

While organic theorists have posited that the material required to produce hydrocarbons in sedimentary rock came from dinosaurs and ancient forests, more recent argument have suggested living organisms as small as plankton may have been the origin...

[Fred Nerks]

"Our findings illustrate that the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in nature may occur in the presence of ultramafic rocks, water and moderate amounts of heat," Proskurowski wrote.

The study also confirmed a major argument of Cornell University physicist Thomas Gold, who argued in his book "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels" that micro-organisms found in oil might have come from the mantle of the earth where, absent photosynthesis, the micro-organisms feed on hydrocarbons arising from the earth's mantle in the dark depths of the ocean floors.

[AmericaUnited]

It’s about time those big lovable dinos stop getting blamed for the evil black goo...

[Fred Nerks]

Giora Proskurowski

Lost City is a hypothermal field some 2,100 feet below sea level that sits along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge at the center of the Atlantic Ocean, noted for strange 90 to 200 foot white towers on the sea bottom.

In 2003 and again in 2005, Proskurowski and his team descended in a scientific submarine to collect liquid bubbling up from Lost City sea vents.

[neb52]

Ping. Has anything been said about this in your industry? I thought I read about old wells being found to have “refilled” when drillers went back to see if they could get anything out of them.

[CarrotAndStick]

So, basically, the Muzzies have an endless supply of wealth, to wage jehad with.

Plus,this is from WND.

[Fred Nerks]

The Mid-Atlantic Ridge hosts numerous hydrothermal fields (colored dots). Logatchev, Rainbow and Saldahna are underlain by variable mixtures of deeper crustal rocks (gabbros and peridotite) and both Logatchev, Rainbow host high-temperature black smokers. The other fields are also sites of black smokers, but are hosted on volcanic rocks. Lost City is currently the only known hydrothermal field composed solely of carbonate chimneys. Image courtesy of University of Washington.

[jimtorr]

.....old wells being found to have “refilled”.......

One example is the oil field under downtown Los Angeles. Most of it was pumped dry 50 - 60 years ago, but starting about ten years ago, they found that the fields had refilled to such an extent that oil was seeping into the sewer system.

[snowsislander]

The abstract for Abiogenic Hydrocarbon Production at Lost City Hydrothermal Field in the current issue of Science is located at here.

There is also a related thread at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1963050/posts.

[bruinbirdman]

"the Lost City Hydrothermal Field "

Isn't this the same place that life is supposed to have begun? I think I read that on a recent thread.

Stand to reason then, if the process for life creation exists in these "close mantel" areas, oil creation (hydro carbon) is not a far leap.

yitbos

[trumandogz]

In any production well drilled you can only effectively extract 30% of the oil and every 10 or 20 years you can rework the well with new technologies and extract additional oil if it is cost effective.

As far as abiotic oil is concerned, it is a hoax. If it were not a hoax the Russians who have been claiming to have abiotic oil would see their production increase.

[wita]

One more proof for my unscientific theory that “fossil” fuels is just a convenient whipping boy for the green persuasion, and has absolutely no relation to reality, or science.

Which only helps to point out that those of the radical green persuasion much less the normal environmental protection nazis, have no interest in science or reality.

Their interest is in exposing God for the faulty creation, and placing themselves in the position of savior. To rectify the mistakes made, however long ago they were made. Chutzpa!

[43north]

Read Thomas Gold’s “The Deep, Hot Biosphere”.

The abiotic theory of hydrocarbon genesis has been widely believed by the Russians and Ukrainians for a long time. It is heresy to speak of this theory in western oil companies.

I used to work for BP in Alaska. Their geologists would have a hard time finding oil in the automotive section of a Costco store. That they believe crude is nothing more than dead dinosaur goo doesn’t surprise me.

[Fred Nerks]

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5863/604

thanks for the link to the Abstract. I missed the previous thread.

[AmericaUnited]

If it were not a hoax the Russians who have been claiming to have abiotic oil would see their production increase.

What if it took hundreds/thousands of years to produce a large quantity?

[Fred Nerks]

Their geologists would have a hard time finding oil in the automotive section of a Costco store...

I'm an Aussie. What happened? The US was once in the forefront of everything...now, anything different or new is automatically derided and discarded out of hand. It's not an attitude that augers well for the US of A.

[43north]

None of the corporate bureaucrat types I encountered was capable of thinking outside the box.

You don’t find much innovation in most large corporations. All decisions are made by committees so that nobody gets fingered when things go wrong. Just like government.

There’s plenty of innovative thinking around - just not in big bureaucracies.

[airborne]

Which makes it completely stupid forus not to drill in America!

[gondramB]

Good find. But we need a better source. That WND article is a touch hysterical - its bordering on dishonest.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20080202/fob1.asp

The headline, that oil is suddenly no longer a fossil fuel, in particular is not related to the original article or the facts.

They have found a vent that is alkaline instead of acidic and it lets trace amounts of simple organic compounds form.

While this is cool, it does not mean that other 99.9% of fossil fuels no longer come from organic matter or that we suddenly have any more fuel than before.

The article doesn’t say it but I would guess the water has iron or cobalt and that the process is similar to that used to produce synthetic fuel, like the gasification of coal.

This is a very cool find because its organic building blocks being built non-organically - but there is so much methane in the universe we knew it wasn’t all coming from plants. But here on earth that is mainly where it comes from.

[Fred Nerks]

Just off the top of my head...as a citizen of DownUnder, it would appear that Science in the US has become so politicized it’s no longer science at all...but ideology. Sorry to say, the situation reminds me of the USSR!

...Thinking of Al Gore and the global warming hoax, for example. Stalin would have been so proud of him: Frighten the sheeple with the WEATHER!

[John Valentine]

As far as abiotic oil is concerned, it is a hoax.

Whatever else it may be: visionary, wrong, spot-on, whatever, one thing the abiotic theory is NOT, is a hoax.

"Hoax", per Random House Unabridged Dictionary: "something intended to deceive or defraud".

Maybe you ought to check a dictionary first the next time you want to sling words around, looking a bit like a "hoax" yourself, in the process.

[43north]

If a scientist wants to get funding to scientifically study something he must not conclude anything that challenges the religious beliefs of the socialists. Global warming is the new God of the left.

[John Valentine]

But here on earth that is mainly where it comes from.

Do you have even the SLIGHTEST evidence to back up that statement? I mean, really, where did you get this God-like knowledge? Or did somebody come by one day and give you the family tree of every molecule of Metahne on the planet? By the way, if I came by with two molecules of CH4, one that came from the same primordial source as the methane on Triton, and the other molecule from the decay of my deal budgee, would you be able to tell me which was which?

[Fred Nerks]

The article doesn’t say it but I would guess the water has iron or cobalt and that the process is similar to that used to produce synthetic fuel, like the gasification of coal.

AHA! Now that does make a lot of sense. Thanks for the link.

Underwater methane plume.

[NoLibZone]

Great so Saudi Oil fields replenish.

We still have to get off the black heroin that is destroying our Nation.

[Fred Nerks]

but...what about the ABSTARCT?

Reports
Abiogenic Hydrocarbon Production at Lost City Hydrothermal Field

Giora Proskurowski,1,2* Marvin D. Lilley,1 Jeffery S. Seewald,2 Gretchen L. Früh-Green,3 Eric J. Olson,1 John E. Lupton,4 Sean P. Sylva,2 Deborah S. Kelley1

Low-molecular-weight hydrocarbons in natural hydrothermal fluids have been attributed to abiogenic production by Fischer-Tropsch type (FTT) reactions, although clear evidence for such a process has been elusive. Here, we present concentration, and stable and radiocarbon isotope, data from hydrocarbons dissolved in hydrogen-rich fluids venting at the ultramafic-hosted Lost City Hydrothermal Field. A distinct “inverse” trend in the stable carbon and hydrogen isotopic composition of C1 to C4 hydrocarbons is compatible with FTT genesis. Radiocarbon evidence rules out seawater bicarbonate as the carbon source for FTT reactions, suggesting that a mantle-derived inorganic carbon source is leached from the host rocks. Our findings illustrate that the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in nature may occur in the presence of ultramafic rocks, water, and moderate amounts of heat.

1 School of Oceanography, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195, USA.

2 Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA 02543, USA.

3 Department of Earth Sciences, ETH-Zentrum, Zurich, Switzerland.

4 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)–Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory, Newport, OR 97365, USA.

[gondramB]

You’re welcome and that’s a very cool picture. Thank you.

[Who dat?]

An oldie but a goodie… Rocks into Gas.

[gondramB]

>>but...what about the ABSTARCT?

Reports
Abiogenic Hydrocarbon Production at Lost City Hydrothermal Field<<

My criticism was intended to be limited to WND’s incorrect restatement of Proskurowski’s work. His work is very important - it could change the order in which events need to happen to have the building blocks of life on earth.

I’m sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing anything else. Jerome R. Corsi has a book on oil he is trying to sell and it irritated me to see him misrepresent like this.

The only consolation is that Coursi doesn’t even to seem to realize that if his fake headline were true, it would undercut book.

BTW, you mentioned Thomas Gold. He was brilliant - discovered the magnetosphere, explained pulsars and a lot more. But his ideas on oil not coming from fossil fuels was part of his steady state earth theory that did not pan out. That doesn’t diminish his other work.

[gusopol3]

if SA. ynot TX and OK?

[Fred Nerks]

We still have to get off the black heroin that is destroying our Nation.

Isn't that like saying 'money is the root of all evil'?

Oil never jumped up and bit anyone...I have a book with the title - 'The Black Bonanza' The fabulous life and times of the Union Oil Company of California...it's the inspiring story of Lyman Stewart and how he established the oil industry in California.

It's dependence on FOREIGN OIL that's the problem. Lyman Stewart must be spinning in his grave.

[gondramB]

Thank for linking to that article I had not seen it.

>>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the study describes how investigators combined three abiotic (non-living) materials — water (H2O), limestone (CaCO3), and iron oxide (FeO) — and crushed the mixture together with the same intense pressure found deep below the earth’s surface.<<

Limestone (thank God) doesn’t spontaneously turn into methane when it gets wet. Its pretty cool that Herschbach was able to use a diamond forge to make it happen. BTW, that’s why I guessed above that the water would have iron or cobalt for a catalyst. Even a diamond forge isn’t strong enough to make methane with a catalyst to lower the activation energy.

[js1138]

What if it took hundreds/thousands of years to produce a large quantity?

That's the catch, isn't it?

Not whether petroleum can be produced abiotically, but rather how long it takes, and what percentage it would represent of usable petroleum.

[Fred Nerks]

thanks for that link, I loved the last paragraph:

For Herschbach, these exciting research questions have “given me a second scientific childhood.” He and his colleagues are eager to return to the lab and find out if even higher pressures will create more complex hydrocarbons, such as butane or propane. The research raises fundamental questions about how scientists determine if a material has living or nonliving origins. It also validates the work of previous scientists. “The fair conclusion,” Herschbach says, “is that the views of Thomas Gold and Russian scientists all the way back to Mendeleev need to be taken more seriously than they have been in the Western world.”

http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/03/rocks-into-gas.html

[djf]

Limestone would have a really, really hard time turning into Methane.

Calcium carbonate has no hydrogens in it.

But as far as the entire theory goes, it has been proven that if you take carbon bearing material, mix it with hydrogen bearing material, and a reducing agent like iron, put it under pressure and high heat, you get alkanes.

Alkanes are a specific type of material. Methane, propane, butane, octane, whatever.

Single bonded long chains of CH2,

You can bury some fish in your backyard, throw in some algea and plankton, just about whatever you want, for the hell of it toss in some fetta cheese and the sun will go nova before it turns to alkanes.

Biologic material DOES NOT decompose into “fossil” fuels. It simply cannot. Except for perhaps the simplest ones, methane and ethane.

[Fred Nerks]

Which makes it completely stupid for us not to drill in America!

That is something I will never never understand.

[gondramB]

>>But here on earth that is mainly where it comes from.
--------------------------
Do you have even the SLIGHTEST evidence to back up that statement? I mean, really, where did you get this God-like knowledge? Or did somebody come by one day and give you the family tree of every molecule of Metahne on the planet? By the way, if I came by with two molecules of CH4, one that came from the same primordial source as the methane on Triton, and the other molecule from the decay of my deal budgee, would you be able to tell me which was which?<<



I (and often other scientists) get in trouble when we talk to normal people about certainty. We have a tendency to not consider issues proved and yet to treat them on a daily basis as if they are proved. Thus the theory of special relativity is still just a theory like gravitation theory is still just a theory and yet we may seem to treat them as if they are fact.

That's because

1. Scientists are human and lazy like everybody else
2. It takes a whole lot of disclaimers to continually remind everyone that theories are still theories and it would really slow the science world down.

That's a long winded way of saying "I am sorry if I sounded more certain about the origin of the majority of petrochemicals that is proved." I apologize. You are certainly correct that origin of a molecule of methane cannot be determined.

But, scientists have gotten pretty good at finding oil, coal and natural gas. That's because they have a fairly good idea where and how it forms - that's why they want to drill Anwar.

Oil and gas deposits always (well as far as I know) have three things in common. A permeable rock like sandstone to store it, a hard rock to prevent it from escaping and a source.

The source is almost always shale. Shale is formed by compaction. For hydrocarbon production the shale should have lots of carbon that decayed in an oxygen deprived atmosphere. The animal tracks and skeletons that are sometimes fossilized point to its origin in decaying organic matter.

These vents with simple hydrocarbons are a great discovery and I'm not trying to take anything away from that. My issue is with the headline that makes it sound like find a tiny amount of non-organically produced hydrocarbons means that oil is not a fossil fuel any more. Plus the article really felt like Corsi faked the headline to pimp his book: "Black Gold Stranglehold"

[gondramB]

>>Biologic material DOES NOT decompose into “fossil” fuels. It simply cannot. Except for perhaps the simplest ones, methane and ethane.<<

If people who believe that should have an opportunity. They should raise some money and start a company that searches for oil on that theory. Exxon made $40 billion last year under the mistaken impression that they could find oil by looking for anoxically decayed organic matter trapped in shale with overlying impermeable rock.

The proof would be in showing that you could better predict where oil and gas will be found.

[britt reed]

There would not have been enough dead dinos or funkified plant matter to create the oil on the planet. I learned about the Earth-cooked oil theory 35 years ago in my geology.

With the discover of the deep ocean vents, it becomes more plausible, not less.

[gondramB]

>>There would not have been enough dead dinos or funkified plant matter to create the oil on the planet. I learned about the Earth-cooked oil theory 35 years ago in my geology.<<

I don’t know....

How many leaves fall each year. How many in 100 years? How many in a million? or 40 million?

[Fred Nerks]

KIMMERIDGE OIL SHALE FIRE.LINK.

sorry the image is so large. (It's a brilliant geology website.)

[Thermalseeker]

What happened?

The Liberals took over the skool system in 1978 with the creation of the Department of (mis)Education. It's been a downhill slide ever since.....quite apparent if you look at the test scores year to year, compared to other industrialized nations. Dramatic slide, despite the gubmint's best efforts to make the tests easier and to teach the test to the "students"....

There's a book out called The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt. It's a real eye opener. This book documents the slide in the American education system over decades and backs up the theory with lots of gubmint documents released through the FOIA.

I think this is the answer to your question of "what happened".....I know in my own area it explains why I run into so many young adults that have graduated high school, but are functionally illiterate....

[mad_as_he$$]

There is more and more evidence that this theory may be true. Several studies have indicated that wells "refill" with "new" oil when shutdown for extended periods. Now the question is did it rise from a pool below or is it "new" oil? This study would indicate it is made inside the Earth. The oil industry has been reluctant to embrace this theory since it would collapse the entire pricing structure of oil.

There is another separate theory that says that all of the bio matter that could of gone into the "manufacturing" of oil is 100's of times the ability of the Earth to have supported on the surface and therefore the bio source of oil would appear to be not enough to have supplied and produced the oil that has already been used.

[mad_as_he$$]

43 is right in a mere 20 years US business as become unable to think outside the box. Endless committee meetings and conference calls with no firm decisions being made. There was a day when taking a chance and trying something new got you big rewards, now it is frowned upon. You are labeled a maverick and have run out of the herd.

despair.com has a poster that says: "Meetings, none of us are as dumb as all of us." Sad but true.

[Fred Nerks]

How many leaves fall each year. How many in 100 years? How many in a million? or 40 million?

as an agriculturalist operating a tropical fruit tree plantation...I think I can tell you what happens to all the fallen leaves. They fall, they rot and turn into fertilizer!

What fascinates me now is the inclusion of sulphur in oil shale...and coal. Where did the sulphur originate? Isn't the most expensive part of refining crude due to the removal of sulphur, and isn't sulphur a contributing danger in coal mining?

What might be the connection? (You tell me that and I'll stick to growing papayas and mangoes, LOL!)

[RoadTest]

“I thought I read about old wells being found to have “refilled””

I read the same thing a couple of years ago! This would explain how it happens.

[RoadTest]

“I thought I read about old wells being found to have “refilled””

I read the same thing a couple of years ago. This would explain how it happens.

Leave the corn for food.

[Fred Nerks]

I know in my own area it explains why I run into so many young adults that have graduated high school, but are functionally illiterate....

we do have that very same problem in Australia. Young people who cannot express themselves verbally or in writing, with very limited vocabulary...the sad fact is, their teachers are no better.

There was a small experiment conducted in Queensland recently; a group of teenagers were asked to sit an exam that was given to young people of their age - in 1890.

They ALL FAILED.

[gondramB]

>>How many leaves fall each year. How many in 100 years? How many in a million? or 40 million?

---

as an agriculturalist operating a tropical fruit tree plantation...I think I can tell you what happens to all the fallen leaves. They fall, they rot and turn into fertilizer!

What fascinates me now is the inclusion of sulphur in oil shale...and coal. Where did the sulphur originate? Isn’t the most expensive part of refining crude due to the removal of sulphur, and isn’t sulphur a contributing danger in coal mining?

What might be the connection? (You tell me that and I’ll stick to growing papayas and mangoes, LOL!)<<

You are right about the leaves - they don’t usually get buried deep enough or fast enough to decay without oxygen and turn into black carbon. In my defense, I’ve been up for three hours and my beloved wife has not yet brought me coffee.

But... black shale is usually found in Paleozoic or Mesozoic strata i.e. from 540 million years ago (mya) to 65 million years ago. So with almost half a billion years to work with its not hard to see how quite a bit of plant matter could have accumulated and sometimes been buried to fast to decay normally.

Sulfur. Except for the part where sulfur compounds tend to stink and make acid rain ,sulfur is actually kind of cool. Its in the same column of the periodic table as oxygen and there is a sulfur cycle like there is an oxygen cycle.

I don’t know much about biology but I’ve read sulfur is important in proteins and vitamins. Bacteria collect the sulfur and plants and animals absorb it. when its burned it goes up as sulfur dioxide and then back down as acid rain and it starts all over. Maybe somebody will wander into the thread who can tell us more.

[Fred Nerks]

...in a mere 20 years US business as become unable to think outside the box.

Interesting comment. So, what happened 20 years ago that brought about this situation?

[Fred Nerks]

In my defense, I’ve been up for three hours and my beloved wife has not yet brought me coffee.

no need to apologize, I enjoyed and appreciated your response. It's almost midnight here, enjoy your coffee, I'm heading off for some shut-eye.