Elon Poll says Clinton, Giuliani have presidential edge

ABC ^ | Feb. 24, 2007 | AP

[FairOpinion]

Sen. Hillary Clinton and former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani hold an edge among candidates in the 2008 presidential race. But an Elon University poll also shows but undecided voters still predominate.

Thirty percent of people who said they would vote Democratic supported Clinton... But 24 percent said it was too early to decide and 22 percent didn't know who to support, the poll said.

Republicans said it was too early to tell, 31 percent, or they didn't know, 25 percent. Giuliani had 21 percent while Sen. John McCain of Arizona picked up 16 percent and former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts got 3 percent.

[Darkwolf377]

I replied to EXACTLY what you posted. Hell, I quoted you!

Uh, my whole position here is if the choice is between Rudy and Hillary. Period. Your weird behavior on this post is pretty funny--I was waiting for you to do the "RINO lovers" crap.

You obviously can't read. Maybe if someone here who can would show you my original post--#5--you'll realize what a slobbering psycho you come off as. I particularly liked this bit:

It's a typical rino supporter tactic - borrowed from the liberals - to represent what the other side is opposed to in order to belittle them.

So representing what your side is opposed to is a way of "belittling" you? How is representing your side belittling you?

What's MOST funny about your spastic tirade is that throughout you do precisely what you accuse me of doing, tossing around liberal and RINO as a diversion from your basic ignorance about the very clear, very simple point I made, because you probably realize how you've completely stepped in it. Mentioning Rudy's gay position was in reference to ANOTHER poster--not you.

When your nurse comes around for your late night med, maybe she can read back the posts to you. But please, until then, try to restrain yourself--because you look a bit, uh, ill-informed when you toss the same tired cliches instead of having the clarity of thought to come up with something original or, at least, pertinent.

[Darkwolf377]

Me too. (Don't tell that to the salivating weirdos here, though, it confuses them.)

This is the time we should be looking for and supporting conservatives--long before the first votes are cast.

But the issue at hand--the issue this thread is about--is IF the decision comes down to Rudy and Hil.

A no-brainer for any real American.

[quantim]

It's amazing how well the RINO lovers on this board latch onto and use the same tactics the left does

For the record it is "Rudy" not 'rudy,' how particularly disingenuous that is.

[dman4384]

Wonderful.

We're gonna be asked to choose between an extreme leftist, and a fringe leftist.

Things are gonna get real bad.

[flashbunny]

Another tactic you use - you see I observe these things -- is the constant throwing out of little insults. In this post alone:

"You obviously can't read"

"slobbering psycho"

"spastic tirade "

"When your nurse comes around for your late night med,"

From another post to me:

"If so, please return to your padded cell."

Plus your other throwing out of the term "retards" earlier in the thread.

They have rules here against personal attacks, which you show a willingness to violate when someone doesn't buy into your flawed arguments. I was going to let it go and not report it to the moderators, but I know from past history that if you do that, the offending poster just sees it as a sign they can keep going and do worse.

I had another response to a previous post of yours written up, but I don't see the point. All you do is throw out insults and personal attacks at the people who don't agree with you.

[flashbunny]

"how particularly disingenuous that is."

I type about 50+ words per minute. I tend to only capitalize the first word of a sentence or "I" unless I go back and see I missed a word. If I was writing a book it would be important, but since I'm posting on an internet forum, I don't always stick to the chicago manual of style. (see I just dissed the city of chicago - oops I did it again.)

[flashbunny]

I looked at the cards and thought you must have double posted a few of them in the same post. I forgot I made five for rudy!

I need to find some direct quotes from him on illegal immigration and campaign finance reform. If you see any, let me know.

[gpapa]

When Congress enacted immigration reform laws that forbade local governments from barring employees from cooperating with the INS, Mayor Rudy Giuliani filed suit against the feds in 1997. He was rebuffed by two lower courts, which ruled that the sanctuary order amounted to special treatment for illegal aliens and were nothing more than an unlawful effort to flaunt federal enforcement efforts against illegal aliens. In January 2000, the Supreme Court rejected his appeal, but Giuliani vowed to ignore the law.

[Darkwolf377]

Another tactic you use - you see I observe these things -- is the constant throwing out of little insults. In this post alone:

This from the person whose very first post to me called me "mr. pot".

And instead of arguing the points--which you can't, because you're completely wrong, and can't admit you were 100% wrong and didn't understand my initial point--you, oddly rnough, seem to forget your own insults in this thread.

You can't argue the facts, because you got them wrong to being with. So...you call names and then have the utter gall to call me on it when I respond in kind.

Please note--the post I am responding to is COMPLETELY about your poor hurt widdle feelings. You have COMPLETELY avoided discussing the issue because you finally must realize you have COMPLETELY missed the point.

All you do is throw out insults and personal attacks at the people who don't agree with you.

Absolutely great comedy coming from the person who tosses around "liberal" and "RINO" when someone doesn't agree with him.

Now that you've made a post that completely avoids the issue of this thread, thus admitting you have nothing to say that's pertinent, please go bother someone else. But this time, do us all a favor and READ THE POST YOU'RE RESPONDING TO first.

And...don't whine about someone slinging insults when YOU were the one who left the issue and started, and someone else is just better at it than you.

[familyop]

"...but I have a feeling there are a lot of "Republicans" who like the feeling of staying home for anyone to the left of Pat Buchanan,..."

That's way to the left. Patty's anti-defense, anti-Israel and very inclined toward labor. By next year, everyone will know about Hunter and whether or not Gingrich is running.

[familyop]

"Reasons to oppose rudy:
1. Pro illegal immigration - fought to maintain NY as a 'sanctuary city' against the federal government.
2. Pro roe v wade, even pro public funding of abortions.
3. Gun grabber. Proposed federal 'assault weapons' ban. Wants federal handgun licensing - and I'm sure which will be as strict as NY city, which means it will be next to impossible to get a handgun.
4. Pro campaign finance reform.

Then there's the other little things - kerik, questionable consulting things, "one in a million" draft exemption based on his absolute unique abilities as a law clerk, etc etc etc."

...and this. Here's a redo for you, although I didn't go on with the search after that.

There's actually quite a bit on him and eminent domain. Try the keywords,

giuliani "eminent domain" "Empire State Development Corporation"

Here's one that was returned (context behind the link). And before anyone posts a comment to support the NY Times' propaganda about the businesses involved, see "leased by fashion designer Donna Karan . . . gallery and showroom" farther down.

Government, NY Times Join Forces to Evict Business Owners
By Jeff McKay
CNSNews.com Correspondent
October 18, 2002
Excerpt:

A New York State government agency is forcing a group of business owners to leave their property by condemning it. That clears the way for a new skyscraper to go up - an office building that will house the New York Times.

Critics complain city taxpayers will foot part of the bill.

In a deal struck by the Empire State Development Corporation . . .

According to court records, the state and city signed a deal with the Times and Forest City Ratner Companies, which included a 99-year lease totaling $85.6 million-well below market value, according to experts. The deal also includes $26 million in tax cuts for the Times.

In addition, if a court sets the condemnation price higher than $85.6 million, the developers would have to come up with the extra money. However, the Times and Forest City will be able to deduct the extra cost, meaning taxpayers will cover all costs above $85.6 million.

Forest City Ratner Companies is headed by Bruce Ratner, a well-known fundraiser for both former Mayor Rudy Giuliani and former President Bill Clinton.

It was Ratner who earlier this year spearheaded a campaign to produce a "politically correct" statue, replacing two of the three white firefighters captured in a world-famous photo of the flag raising at Ground Zero with a more diverse grouping. The move outraged both firefighters and the public and was later scrapped.

[Darkwolf377]

I am going to guess Gingrich will not run.

There is definitely an opportunity here for a RWR type who can make Americans feel good about BEING Americans again, and in this case it'd be by fighting some of the same enemies Reagan fought--namely, members of the press and the left whose pleasure and job it is to make Americans feel just sick about BEING Americans.

[MNJohnnie]

We are 90 weeks from an election and we are all ready getting week by week polling data. Could this get any MORE pathetic?

[MNJohnnie]

does anyone know of any conservative candidates that are running

Duncan Hunter

[Mia T]

bump

Trust me on this, if nominated, social conservatives and Evangelicals will go third party of stay home.--Hydroshock

... which means--trust me on this--social conservatives and Evangelicals will be placing their de facto vote for hillary clinton.

 

Did you ever wonder why Hillary Clinton is, apparently, more tolerable for these REAL conservatives, than is Rudy Giuliani?--LtdGovt

Excellent way to put it.
They think Rudy is too liberal so they would help elect a Stalinist. Makes abundant sense.
This move is even more irrational than meets the eye.

WHY THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT MUST MOBILIZE AGAINST HILLARY:
CLINTON CONFLATES EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS AND ISLAMO-FASCIST TERRORISTS


AFTERWORD: A Note to the Religious Right

 

 

I want my country to win the war and wipe out terrorism. The other issues won't mean a hill of beans if we're all dead.--Miss Didi

Great bottom-line analysis, Miss Didi.

\

[areafiftyone]

- Rudy tossed Arafat out of a city sponsored celebrations saying, "I would rather not have someone who has been implicated in the murders of Americans there, if I have the discretion not to have him there”.
Frontpage Magazine

- Rudy did the same to Fidel Castro at a Dinner.
Answers.com Personalities – Rudy Giuliani

- When a Saudi prince donated millions to 9/11 relief efforts and later suggested that United States policy in the Middle East may have been partially responsible for the attacks, Rudy returned the money.
CNN

- Rudy refused to meet with racial arsonist Al Sharpton.
Right Nation

- Rudy as mayor was strong on law and order. Rudy said that "government exists above all to keep people safe in their homes and in the streets, not to redistribute income, run a welfare state, or perform social engineering". And Rudy backed this all up by going after both quality-of-life crimes and serious crimes. Total crime went down by some 64 percent during the Giuliani years, and murder went down 67 percent. Auto thefts went down on average about 80,000 per year.
Bureau of Justice Statistics – U.S. Department of Justice
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy supported the police when the police had to enter and deal with Muslims at a mosque.
Village Voice

- Rudy closed down many porn shops across the city and specifically shutdown porn shops in residential neighborhoods.
Reference.com – Rudy Giuliani
Bureau of Justice Statistics – U.S. Department of Justice
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy went after both low level and high level drug dealers for the first time in the cities history.
City Journal
Bureau of Justice Statistics – U.S. Department of Justice
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy had zero tolerance for quality of life crimes such as squeegee extortionists, graffiti vandals, panhandling and public urination.
City Journal
Samoa
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy launched a welfare revolution, removing illegal recipients, cutting the rolls by 20% the first year alone and dropping the welfare rolls by 600,000 over the course of his plan.
NY POST
Mayor Giuliani Delivers Eighth And Final “State Of The City” Address
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy launched a work requirement program for the remaining welfare recipients. the NY Times called it slavery.
Mayor Giuliani Delivers Eighth And Final “State Of The City” Address
NY Times
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy constantly spoke out against illegitimacy and fatherless families. One of many things that Rudy said on the subject was the following: " If you wanted a social program that would really save these kids, . I guess the social program would be called fatherhood.
" Rudy Giuliani “State of the City” Address
Mayor Giuliani Delivers Eighth And Final “State Of The City” Address
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy objected to affirmative action. Rudy ended the cities set-aside program for minority contractors.
CA Political News

- Rudy rejected the idea of lowering the job requirement standards for minorities and woman. - Rudy said. "it was unfair to expect middle-class kids to work their way through college by holding down jobs and going to classes while exempting students on welfare from working.
" CA Political News
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy reformed the public school system and forced out liberal chancellors who wouldn't install his reforms.
A Plan to Reform our Public Schools-and the Commitment to Go Further

- Rudy tried to privatize 5 of the cities worst public schools.
Heartland
A Plan to Reform our Public Schools-and the Commitment to Go Further

- Rudy was for school vouchers Rudy said, "The whole notion of choice is really about more freedom for people, rather than being subjugated by a government system that says you have no choice about the education of your child,".
A Plan to Reform our Public Schools-and the Commitment to Go Further

- Rudy fought against public money for an art display that defiled Christ and he fought against other obscene so-called works of art.
Daily Nebraskan

- Rudy played hardball with city unions winning concessions from city workers that other mayors had failed to do.
NY Times
Union Politicking in the N.Y.C. Elections
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy strong armed state leaders to merge the cities Housing Police and Transit Police into the NYPD saving the city hundreds of millions. Rudy did this by threatening to fire every housing and transit officer and rehire each as a city cop if legislative leaders did not go along.
NY Times
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy did the same with the city’s garbageman, many of whom worked only half days because the department was so overstaffed with union jobs. Rudy won $300 million in savings from them by threatening to contract out trash collection to private companies.
City Journal
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy cut or killed 23 levies and taxes, saving taxpayers $9.8 billion during his terms.
Manhattan Institute
GoVote.com
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy cut NYC's top income-tax rate by 20.6%.
A Budget for a Strong and Stable Economic Future
GoVote.com
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Local NYC taxes on a family of four dropped 23.7% during Rudy's term.
Manhattan Institute
GoVote.com
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy cut the commercial-rent tax.
Columbia.edu
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy cut sales taxes, including taxes on clothing.
A Budget for a Strong and Stable Economic Future
GoVote.com
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy cut the marriage penalty on taxpaying couples.
GoVote.com
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review>

- Rudy cut taxes on commercial rents everywhere outside of Manhattan’s major business districts, and various taxes on small businesses and self-employed New Yorkers.
Mayor Giuliani Delivers Eighth And Final “State Of The City” Address
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy's expenditure growth averaged 2.9% annually, while local inflation between January 1994 and December 2001 averaged 3.6%.
Urban Futures
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy privatized municipal assets.
Reason Public Policy Institute

- Rudy sold WNYC radio for $20 million, WNYC-TV for $207 million, and NYC's share of the U.N. Plaza Hotel for $85 million.
Scripps Howard News Service

- Rudy divested the City from the New York Coliseum adding $345 million to city coffers.
Second Inaugural Address by Archives of Rudolph W. Giuliani

- Rudy let the private Central Park Conservancy manage Central Park.
ABC News

- Rudy cut NYC's hotel tax from 6% to 5%. Consequently, hotel tax revenues increased from $135 million in Fiscal Year 1995 to $239 million in FY 2001.
The Entrepreneurial City Archives of Rudolph W. Giuliani The Manhattan Institute
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- When asked if Rudy would raise taxes after 9/11 Rudy said that would be "a dumb, stupid, idiotic, and moronic thing to do.
" American Spectator

- A quote from Rudy on his economic philosophy: “City government should not and cannot create jobs through government planning. The best it can do, and what it has a responsibility to do, is to deal with its own finances first, to create a solid budgetary foundation that allows businesses to move the economy forward on the strength of their energy and ideas. After all, businesses are and have always been the backbone of New York City.
” City Journal

- Construction permits increased by more than 50% in the city per year during Rudy's terms.
Mayor Giuliani Delivers Eighth And Final “State Of The City” Address
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Tourism increased 50% in the city per year during Rudy's terms.
NYC.GOV
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- City jobs increased by 430,000 to an all time high of 3.72 million during Rudy's terms.
City Journal
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- City personal income increased 50% during Rudy's terms.
CapitalCA News
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- The percentage income that city residence paid in taxes declined from 8.8 to 7.3 percent during Rudy's terms.
City Journal
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Unemployment in the city went form 10.3% to 5.1% during Rudy's terms.
The Claremont Institute
New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Fiscal Record: 1993-2001 – Deroy Murdock – National Review

- Rudy was an outstanding leader during the 9/11 crisis.
Time Magazine

- Rudy has been a strong supporting in our WOT including supporting the mission in Iraq.
Counsel on Foreign Relations

- Rudy was chosen by Ronald Reagan in 1981 as an Associate Attorney General placing him in the third highest position in the Reagan's DOJ.
Wikipedia

- In 1983, Rudy was appointed by Reagan to be U.S. Attorney for the SD of NY. In that position, Rudy amassed 4,152 convictions including the heads of NY's so-called "Five Families". Rudy also prosecuted terrorists and illegal immigrants.
Wikipedia

[flashbunny]

"This from the person whose very first post to me called me "mr. pot"."

As in pot calling the kettle black. I guess you're not very quick on the uptake.

Boy, do I know your type. Not very smart but VERY angry. And you get even more angry when people call you on your own remarks.

I could resort to your little childish game and insult you all day long. But it wouldn't be in line with the rules of the board, and it would cease to be fun because it would be so easy. So I'll just put you down on my "list of troubled Freepers" since FR doesn't have an ignore list.

[George W. Bush]

article: "Poll director Hunter Bacot says it was unexpected to see Clinton with such strong numbers in the South.

More reason, along with the election of Blue Dogs in '06, to believe Hitlery has a good chance at some southern states. All the more reason to believe that running a leftwing gungrabbing pro-abortion sodomy-loving uber-Yankee NYC mayor against her is suicide in the South. Running any real liberal against her is a mistake in the South.

article: "Most respondents who identified themselves as Republicans said it was too early to tell, 31 percent, or they didn't know, 25 percent. Giuliani had 21 percent while Sen. John McCain of Arizona picked up 16 percent and former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts got 3 percent."

More indications that these are nothing but name recognition polls. I notice that, despite earlier libmedia polls indicating the mayor with 59% support among Republicans, this poll is showing only 21%. Besides, 56% say it's too early or they don't know.

So much for anyone being a frontrunner. More silliness that the libmedia and FR's liberal contingent love to peddle but with no real foundation.

[George W. Bush]

If people don't like Rudy's social policies, do they think allowing Hillary (whose social positions are far worse) to win in order to "send a message" will achieve ANYthing?

They are the exact same social policies. They always were.

Why should people waste the time to vote for a Xlinton clone with a big R?

[George W. Bush]

You are so eager to trash Rudy you have completely missed my very simple point, Mr Pothead: I'm saying IF the choice is between these two, there should be no contest.

A Rudi-Hillary matchup will bring out a conservative third-party candidate. Guaranteed. I suspect he is already a known and declared candidate. It's not terribly hard to figure out who.

Many conservatives, including the Christian Right and the RKBA folk, are incapable of voting to destroy the Second Amendment or to give their blessing to a heinously pro-abortion candidate. And it doesn't matter what you say to them. They will not do it. They will stay home, vote third-party or refuse to vote the presidential line but their loyalty to the Second and their fear of God is greater than any fear of Hitlery, even more so if they can't distinguish any difference between Hitlery and the GOP nominee.

Resent it all you want. They don't care.