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To: Copernicus
>DROPPED FROM 284,117 IN 1992 TO 103,942 IN 1999. OF THESE 80,570 ARE RETAIL DEALERS OR PAWNBROKERS.

With all respect, this is an extremely foolish post. It only helps the anti-gunners.

Federal Firearms Licenses have nothing to do with possession, shooting, carry, etc. FFL holders are firearms dealers, either in the traditional retail trade or pawnbrokers who have reason to sell firearms that were pawned but not redeemed.

Only real question here is, why are there 103,942 FFLs out there when only 80,570 are dealers in either the retail or secondary markets?

Quite frankly, with America under a domestic assault, when we are being overrun with illegal immigrants, when there are undoubtedly Muslim extremists moving in through our open borders, when we know there are Muslim extremist cells here already, I'm glad they do not give just anyone the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.

That's all we need. Some wacko Islamic funneling guns to his radical brethren, and doing it with the advantages of having a FFL under the color of law.
5 posted on 02/08/2007 7:29:30 PM PST by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in Vietnam meant never having to say I was sorry......)
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To: MindBender26
That's all we need. Some wacko Islamic funneling guns to his radical brethren, and doing it with the advantages of having a FFL under the color of law.

You, my freind, appear to be drinking the tasty koolaid the ATF and other anti-gun groups are handing out. Your statement is just as ridiculous as those that tried to get yet more Draconian gun control passed in the name of national security after documents were SUPPOSEDLY found in an Al Qaida training manual telling Jihadist's to buy guns at American gun shows.

The attempted anti-gun scare tactic went further, with the anti-gun WHACKOs saying that terrorists wanted to buy .50 caliber semi-auto weapons and use them to take out our infrastructure, airplanes, etc. (the RINO Kalifornia governor bit on this TRIPE and banned them, and the anti-gun likes of RINO-rudy would do the same on a national level, if given the chance).

ALL TOTAL B.S.

It was around this time that an ENTIRE SHIP, heading to Yassir Arafat's Palestinian Authority, was intercepted and FIFTY THOUSAND TONS of all sorts of military arms were seized!

To think Muslim extremists are shopping at U.S. gun shops or gun shows is LUDICROUS, and even if they WERE, there would be little more threat to the general population than, say, the gang bangers that already endanger citizens in most any big city in the country.

Whether the enemy is gangbangers, terrorists, or an out of control government, law-abiding citizens MUST be able to keep and bear arms in their own defense, as enumerated in the 2nd Amendment.

7 posted on 02/08/2007 8:09:34 PM PST by DocH (Gun-grabbers, you can HAVE my guns... lead first.)
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To: MindBender26
Quite frankly, with America under a domestic assault, when we are being overrun with illegal immigrants, when there are undoubtedly Muslim extremists moving in through our open borders, when we know there are Muslim extremist cells here already, I'm glad they do not give just anyone the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people with FFLs who do not engage in storefront sales are harming anyone in any fashion whatsoever (aside from making Brady et al. nervous, of course)?

15 posted on 02/08/2007 9:19:55 PM PST by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: MindBender26
Only real question here is, why are there 103,942 FFLs out there when only 80,570 are dealers in either the retail or secondary markets?

Curio and relic licenses. class 3. The government created it in 1968. You can't sell with it.

19 posted on 02/08/2007 9:33:42 PM PST by I got the rope
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To: MindBender26
They probably excluded Curio and Relic licenses, who are not licensed to sell firearms as a source of income. A friend of mine bought a machine to put jackets on bullets. He says he has to get an FFL as an ammunition manufacturer to do this, even if he only intends to use the bullets for his own reloading. He also has a Dillon 550B, which he uses to crank out thousands of rounds for personal consumption. This does not require an FFL.

If this makes absolutely no sense to you, then you are beginning to understand the maze of firearms laws in this country.

22 posted on 02/09/2007 3:48:57 AM PST by sig226 (See my profile for the democrat culture of corruption list.)
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To: MindBender26
"Federal Firearms Licenses have nothing to do with possession, shooting, carry, etc. FFL holders are firearms dealers, either in the traditional retail trade or pawnbrokers who have reason to sell firearms that were pawned but not redeemed."

A LOT of folks bought and sold guns in other than the "traditional retail trade". They got FFL's so they and a few friends could get guns wholesale. Completely honest and legit folks. The ONLY purpose of the BATF**KS is to make it more and more difficult for honest citizens to buy firearms. The already know that there is NO way to keep criminals from getting arms.

31 posted on 02/09/2007 5:21:43 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: MindBender26

why would a terrorist buy guns in america? they cost way too much here, and its hard to get anything good.
you could probably pick up a crate of full auto ak47s in africa for what one civilian (semi-auto) version costs here.

the only terrorists buying guns in america are the ones doing it at bloomberg's direction.


32 posted on 02/09/2007 5:38:24 AM PST by absolootezer0 (stop repeat offenders - don't re-elect them!)
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To: MindBender26
By all means, lets limit the rights of the many to catch the few. That's pretty much what my fifth grade teacher used to do, the old biddy. Or what a DI does to his basic training charges.

We The People, the ones who the Right to Keep and bear arms belongs, are supposed to be the masters of the government, not it's children, servants or underlings.

How about instead we just punish those Jihadies that funnel guns to their illegal brethren.

Besides, if one checked, I'm sure their are plenty of Islamics who hold licenses in areas of high concentration, such as Detroit, Arlington Texas, and other such places.

33 posted on 02/09/2007 5:57:24 AM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: MindBender26
Federal Firearms Licenses have nothing to do with possession, shooting, carry, etc. FFL holders are firearms dealers, either in the traditional retail trade or pawnbrokers who have reason to sell firearms that were pawned but not redeemed.

Only real question here is, why are there 103,942 FFLs out there when only 80,570 are dealers in either the retail or secondary markets?

You're forgetting about C&R Collectors. A C&R is licensed as a FFL but is an FFL 03 and can NOT sell your guns in business sense.

A "gun dealer" is a FFL 01

37 posted on 02/09/2007 7:27:25 AM PST by OXENinFLA
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To: MindBender26
"why are there 103,942 FFLs out there when only 80,570 are dealers in either the retail or secondary markets?"

That 103,942 was in 1999. As of 2005, the number is half that.

41 posted on 02/09/2007 7:46:07 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: MindBender26

Do you know that prior to the '68 GCA, under federal law ANYONE could buy a firearm without going through an FFL...because there was no such thing as an FFL. Anyone could contact Colt, Winchester, etc. and buy a gun. You could order from the Sears catalog - check out the 1967 edition if you don't believe me.

The point is that the nanny state didn't exist. People took responsibility for themselves, and the government had limitations on what it could do. Heck, prior to the 1934 National Firearms Act, anyone could walk into a lot of establishments and buy a machine gun. AND CRIME WAS LOWER.

Why do I (and everyone else out there) have less of an ability to exercise my rights than my father or grandfathers? How (in the absence of a criminal record, drug abuse or mental disease) can that be justified? Because if that can be justified, so can government permits to buy books or magazines, to get internet access or to attend a house of worship. Why shouldn't I be able to get a gun for under retail if I buy it directly from a manufacturer or distributor (thereby cutting out the middle man) without the "holy" permission of the feds (plus paying them hefty fees, and paying the local government hefty fees, and being forced to enter into a business that I may choose not to enter into)? How do you justify it?

Don't tell me "it is to cut crime, because this reduces access to guns by criminals." BS - criminals will get guns in a hundred different ways if they'd like to, including stealing them from dealers, police, the military or average citizens. Why? Because they're CRIMINALS - they disobey the law, that's what they do and why they have that label! The ONLY people affected by the FFL requirements are average citizens - and those that have FFLs as part (or all) of their business now have that much less competition and can charge higher prices (yet another government interference in the private martket).

Maybe I missed something - where in the 2nd Amendment does it say that I have to buy a gun from a licensed dealer?


49 posted on 02/09/2007 8:29:21 AM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: MindBender26
Quite frankly, with America under a domestic assault, when we are being overrun with illegal immigrants, when there are undoubtedly Muslim extremists moving in through our open borders, when we know there are Muslim extremist cells here already, I'm glad they do not give just anyone the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.

Quite frankly, with America under a domestic assault, when we are being overrun with illegal immigrants, when there are undoubtedly Muslim extremists moving in through our open borders, when we know there are Muslim extremist cells here already, --

-- It's unbelievable that the reaction is to restrict the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.
We need more armed citizens, not less. .

54 posted on 02/09/2007 8:42:27 AM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia <)
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To: MindBender26

I would be willing to bet that the remaining 23,372 FFLs are C&Rs, manufactures and Class III to name a few.

You are incorrect in your statement about FFLs have nothing to do with possession, etc. You must have a Class III FFL if you own/possess/etc. one of the few citizen ownable machine guns.


59 posted on 02/09/2007 9:12:14 AM PST by looscnnn ("Those 1s and 0s you stepped in is a memory dump. Please clean your shoes." PC Confusious)
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To: MindBender26
You are wrong. The ATF decided to decrease the number of FFLs under pressure from the large gun-selling chain stores, who didn't like what they scornfully referred to as "kitchen table dealers", meaning individuals, owning seller's licenses. The chains thought they were losing money to these people, and that was the bottom line. It had nothing to do with crime, terrorism, or anything else just greed.

As for your leftist fantasy of some Islamic terrorist with an FFL, you seem to have fallen for the gun-grabber's propaganda. Any FFL dealer who does not keep meticulous records will be in a world of trouble from the jack-booted government thugs. I know of several ex-FFLs who have been forced out of business and had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns confiscated over trivial paperwork violations. Perhaps this is what you want.
93 posted on 02/09/2007 12:27:03 PM PST by ozzymandus
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