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Posted on 07/08/2006 6:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
London, England (LifeNews.com) -- British researchers are upset that the Catholic Church has decided it will excommunicate scientists who are involved in embryonic stem cell research. The Vatican says the research, which relies on the destruction of human life to obtain stem cells, is just as bad as abortion.
Last week, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, head of the Pontifical Council for the Family, told an official Vatican magazine that embryonic stem cell research was "the same as abortion."
"Destroying human embryos is equivalent to an abortion. It is the same thing," he said.
"Excommunication will be applied to the women, doctors and researchers who eliminate embryos [and to the] politicians that approve the law," the cardinal said in an interview.
However, British scientists are calling this "religious persecution."
Dr. Stephen Minger, leading stem cell expert at Kings College, told the BBC, "Having been raised a Catholic I found this stance really outrageous."
"Are they going to excommunicate IVF doctors, nurses and embryologists who routinely put millions of embryos down the sink every year throughout the world?" he asked.
Professor Allan Templeton, president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, told the BBC that the cardinal's comments were "insensitive and unhelpful."
Meanwhile, Professor Julian Savulescu, Uehiro Chair in practical ethics at the University of Oxford, blasted the Catholic church saying the excommunication views amount "to religious persecution of scientists which has no place in modern liberal societies."
An Italian cloning scientist wants to be the first excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
Professor Cesare Galli of the Laboratory of Reproductive Technologies in Cremona, the first scientist to clone a horse, said last week that the position makes the Catholic church like the Talbian in Afghanistan.
"I can bear excommunication. I was raised as a Catholic, I share Catholic values, but I am able to make my own judgment on some issues and I do not need to be told by the church what to do or to think," Galli told the London Telegraph newspaper.
Ping!
We are slowly turning back from the excesses of the 60s.
I've never quite grasped the excommunication concept. God is the judge, not humans. The Catholic Church is certainly entitled to expel members, but to give it more cosmic consequences than that seems to be usurping authority that is not their's.
Unlike the Kennedys, they don't have the money to "donate" to the Church. case in point - Joeseph Kennedy's marriage was "annulled" after he already had 4 or 5 kids. Of course because of that, in the eyes of the Church, his kids are now bastards. Well, we all know the Kennedys are bastards anyway :-)
I don't get it. If someone wants to be Catholic, they have to obey the teachings of the pope and of the bishops united with the pope. How can a person moan about excommunication when that person commits himself/herself to serious immoral actions condemned by the Church through the teaching authority of the pope?
The authority on such matters was given to the Church in no uncertain terms directly from the lips of the Word Incarnate.
Matthew 16: 18-19
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
That's pretty cosmic, I think.
Members are free to come back any time after they've repented of their actions. They're not excommunicated forever (unless they refuse to repent).
That's "ask the balance," rather than "as the balance" and "with the Democratic party," rather than "at with the Democratic party."
People aren't excommunicated by the Church, they excommunicate themselves with their choices and beliefs. I believe an organization still has the right to choose who can be a member and who probably wouldn't be a good fit, but I could be wrong.
Dear cryptomc,
* sigh *
So many errors, so little time.
First, I'm sure that plenty of these excommunicated researchers are quite wealthy by this point. I've known folks who did academic scientific research, and the top guys often do well.
I worked in a research lab for a few years, and the top guy, aged 35 or so, was already a full professor, with a comfortable salary, got a salary from each research grant he brought in, was on the boards of directors of a few companies that commercialized his research, with salaries and stock options attendant, owned a fancy house in a fancy section of Washington, DC, drove a BMW, and was married to a professor at another local university, doing nearly as well.
Thus, if one could buy one's way out of an excommunication, these folks likely would have the means.
Second, Joseph Kennedy received nothing from the Church that thousands of other Catholics receive every year, usually for a cost of about $400 (in the United States), which covers the actual expenses of the marriage tribunal. If a party requires a great deal of time of a canon lawyer, that can increase the cost, just as a bitterly contested divorce can cost a lot more than an uncontested divorce.
However, in most cases, the grounds for annulment are pretty straightforward, and although the process is usually very time-consuming and emotionally draining, a knowledgeable priest can foresee the potential for success of an application for a declaration of nullity near the start of the process.
As to the status of children after annulment, this has been raised and dismissed so many times on FR that if I had a dime for each time it's come up, I'd be retired by now. A declaration of nullity means that no SACRAMENTAL marriage occurred. It says nothing about LEGAL marriage. Legal marriage is about the laws of the civil government. Legitimacy of children derives from the civil law.
The children of couples who obtain a declaration of nullity for their SACRAMENTAL marriage are still the legitimate issue of their parents from their civil marriage.
sitetest
I've never understood it either. It led me to being an agnostic for decades, before finding Christ in a non-denominational church. When I was about 12, we got a letter from the Priest of the Catholic Church we attended. It said that they had done some research and knew that Dad was not contributing enough according to his income. It said that he was expected to sr=tart giving more until he was giving the proper amount. We weren't very devout, but at least one of us went each week to sit through the service and drop the envelope into the basket. We got new "offering" envelopes that showed double the amount we had been giving. Dad continued to put the old amount into the new envelopes. We got another letter saying that since we were not willing to support the church properly, we were being excommunicated from that Parish and should not attend any more services there. It really soured me on religion. Today, I understand that religion, being man-made is a perversion of what Christ wanted in the Church. All religions put some burden of obedience to the institution itself, instead of asking us just to be obedient to God's Will. Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden light as a way of telling us that coming to Him was the only requirement - all the onus of the Law was to be no more. Most churches don'y ascribe to that and insist on a lot of rituals, rites and sacraments to be performed as if we were all Israelites under the Old Coveneant.
< We do not deny that God is the final judge, and excommunication is not an eternal death sentence. it is simply a recogntion that the offender has publicly removed himself, through his public words and actions, from the Faith Community and may no longer join with us in our Sacramental life. When he chooses to re accept the Faith he is welcomed back with all the love seen in the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Excommunication is a Catholic way of stating who we are and what we believe as a Community.
Very true. You are always welcome to return if you wander off the path, get lost and want help. Point well taken.
I may be a skeptic when it comes to religion, but I can accept that if you want to be a member of a certain church, that church has the right to expel you or decline your affiliation if you refuse to follow its teachings! What's their problem?
You're good. Outstanding summary/rebuttal.
Dear trebb,
It's regrettable that the pastor of this Catholic parish long ago drove you and your family out of the Catholic Church through his illegitimate actions.
Whatever the priest said, one cannot be excommunicated for failing to put an amount of money into the collection basket that is satisfactory to the pastor. Neither can the priest tell folks not to come to Mass if they don't give enough. Neither may the priest deny sacraments to parishioners for not giving enough money.
In fact, the direct demand for more money in exchange of sacraments is a crime in Catholic Canon Law. It's called simony. That action is actually grounds for discipline in the Catholic Church.
It's a shame that this was done to your family, and it's also a violation of Church teaching, Church discipline, and Church law.
That being said, I have heard of Catholic priests who (not rightfully, in my mind) have tried to dictate the amount of one's weekly remittance in order to permit the family's children to attend the local Catholic school. In our area, most pastors will require that families make some regular remittance to obtain favorable tuition rates, but this is on the theory that actual, active parishioners have a right to a favored tuition rate over non-parishioners. As well, these pastors merely count the presence of the envelope, not the amount in the envelope.
The last Catholic pastor that I know who required a specific amount in the envelope each week in relation to attendance at the parish Catholic school retired in the early 1970s.
sitetest
Let's say someone has a spot of cancer on the lungs... would they leave it there? Would they give a doctor the authority to remove it... or hope it stays to itself, not affecting the rest of their body?
Someone has children... an older child starts using drugs and they have done everything to help... he doesn't want it. Their child starts to invite like characters into the home (known or unknown to the parents); You find out... do they let the child remain in the home to influence the other younger children, or do they remove them?
The church is a body and a family, all over the world. Bad analogies, but obviously, i'm no genius.
As for as authority... we could start a thread on that alone.
Scientists used to have a code of ethics as well, so did doctors. The mere fact that over 400 cures have been documented through adult stem cells of all types and none through embryonic stem cell research, should be enough. This is eugenics and science being a small g 'god'. If those who have eyes see where we have gone on this path now... I don't know what to tell them.
As you can see by those who spoke in the column... they're not listening... that doesn't tell you anything, but it tells Catholics all over the world something. Everyone wants it all, when in fact they don't want the church.
It's like a certain catholic senator or three speaking at a Planned Parenthood rally saying 'I will make sure abortion is always legal and it's right to have it', while heading off to mass after to receive communion. I don't care who you are... you see the contradiction. Meanwhile, some parishioners know they did the rally and may have complained to the priest or bishop. No one claims to know the state of their soul, it's scandalous... and is a wonderful example to those in the pews that the church is okay with abortion... I mean, they're not saying anything. Anyone with common sense couldn't think the Lord would want you to do that... regardless.
No one ever asks where they get most of the embryonic stem cells from... or where they got them from in the beginning.
Don't be fooled... this is not for the good of society, it's for the perfection of some and the extermination of others.
Rant off/
I didn't have my coffee yet.
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