[Kansas Gov. Kathleen] Sebelius criticizes State Board of Education's move [new science standards]

Kansas City Star via Kansas.com ^ | 12 November 2005 | DAVID KLEPPER

[Just mythoughts]

"Come to think of it, they were just cheering the election of Democrats in Dover Pa a few days ago. Makes one wonder why they are on a conservative forum in the first place."

LOL I do remember that knee bowing to "Fast Eddie Rendell" thread. I am sure that Rove is shaking in his boots over the shameless promotion of liberals as salvation of our civilization.

[Junior]

What the heck am I doing up at this hour?

I'm asking myself the same question. 'Course I didn't get to bed till 2 a.m. (just got back from a TSO concert).

[Doctor Stochastic]

Loved her violin concerto and the "Swan of Tuonela."

[Just mythoughts]

"Common descent is a fact. Teachers are also required to tell little children that in 1776 the Declaration of Independence was signed, and that matter is made of molecules, and that PI is about 3.14, not 3. They are required to teach facts. Why should they lie to little children and tell them that evolution is not supported by the evidence?"

The only evidence you have is that man and woman are the vehicle by which the child descends. Of course the modern man seeks to replace that "natural" method with his p dishes and turkey basters.

Yes just like that FACT that those RIGHTS endowed by the CREATOR, you nor any other evolutionists have power to TAKE!!!



"Actually, it is your religious ideology that makes you close your eyes to the physical creation. You have been provided the evidence yet you refuse to see. There is no reason we must push your ideologically induced blindness on our children."

Assumption NOT in evidence, this flesh body is what it is and I have no issue in biology classes teaching a child what is required for the flesh to live, and what the flesh is made up of, even those mutating cells that are identified. What I reject is telling a child that he or she is nothing more than a reproduction in a timeless evolution of mutating cells, just another animal among the species.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

How did Sebelius get elected in a conservative state like Kansas ?

[From many - one.]

check to see how thread evolves

[Mr Rogers]

Macro-evolution is not fact, nor is it science. It is, at best, history.

Biologists are brain-washed to worship evolution as the unifying principle of biology. In a graduate level class on evolution, my final exam consisted of one essay question - "Why is evolution fundamental to biology?"

My answer was that it wasn't. The professor, a good guy, gave me an A for my final - said he was certain I was wrong, but that I was the only one in the class who had actually thought about the question.

Evolution is taught as fact because the alternative is to admit we don't know. The latter is more intellectually honest, but it doesn't allow a lot of pontification.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"The only evidence you have is that man and woman are the vehicle by which the child descends."

No, that is not true at all. There are genetic markers (ERV's for instance) that we share with chimps, but chimps don't share with gorillas. There are some that we share with both. ERV's, BTW, are Endogenous Retroviruses. They embed themselves into DNA and get stuck there. Their point of insertion is essentially random. The chances that we would share the same ones with chimps, at the SAME locations on the gene, are astronomically high if we are not descended from a common ancestor. And the fact that we share some of these with chimps but not gorillas is beautiful evidence that our common ancestor with chimps is more recent than our common ancestor with gorillas.


"Yes just like that FACT that those RIGHTS endowed by the CREATOR, you nor any other evolutionists have power to TAKE!!! "

Sit down and take a deep breath now. Better? Good. I have never said I wanted to take away your rights.

"Assumption NOT in evidence..."

Which is why your arguments have never amounted to evidence against evolution. You assume too much.

[Junior]

The CrevoSci Archive Just one of the many services of Darwin Central "The Conspiracy that Cares"

• PatrickHenry's famous List-O-Links
• Webster's On-Line Dictionary:  Creationist

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

1. 2005-11-12 [Kansas Gov. Kathleen] Sebelius criticizes State Board of Education's move [new science standards]
2. 2005-11-11 A revolution for evolution - Intelligent design must not replace hard science in classrooms.
3. 2005-11-11 Dover results disputed: School board candidate says machine was faulty
4. 2005-11-11 FR Debate: Intelligent Design vs. Birth Defects, Can They Be Reconciled?
5. 2005-11-11 Potential Origins of Europeans Found
6. 2005-11-11 The Real Evil of Evolutionary Humanism
7. 2005-11-10 Culture War Briefing, weekday news guide
8. 2005-11-10 Fossils of fierce-looking dinosaur found in Argentina (Godzilla)
9. 2005-11-10 Is Intelligent Design a Bad Scientific Theory or a Non-Scientific Theory?
10. 2005-11-10 Kansas educators clear way for evolution criticism
11. 2005-11-10 Pat Robertson has a message for Dover, PA: Don't ask God to help.
12. 2005-11-10 Pat Robertson Warns Pa. Town of Disaster
13. 2005-11-10 US states divide over creationism [the view from the UK]
14. 2005-11-10 Why the conspiracy theorizing about theories? (Freeper op-ed)
15. 2005-11-09 Anti-Evolution School Board Ousted
16. 2005-11-09 Dover CARES sweeps election (Intelligent Design loses big)
17. 2005-11-09 Evolution Suffers Kansas Setback
18. 2005-11-09 Gigantic Apes Coexisted With Early Humans, Study Finds
19. 2005-11-09 'Intelligent Design' Wins In Kansas
20. 2005-11-09 Patent issued for anti-gravity device
21. 2005-11-09 Science to ride gravitational waves
22. 2005-11-09 Shifting Icebergs May Have Forced Penguin Evolution
23. 2005-11-09 Shifting Icebergs May Have Forced Penguin Evolution
24. 2005-11-08 Bloodthirsty 'Vampire' Spider Found
25. 2005-11-08 Down for the Count (Sleep & Evolution)
26. 2005-11-08 Federal lawsuit could follow board vote [Evolution in Kansas & Dover]
27. 2005-11-08 Kansas education board downplays evolution
28. 2005-11-08 Kansas State Board Approves Teaching Standards Skeptical of Evolution
29. 2005-11-08 Math problems too big for our brains
30. 2005-11-08 RATE research reveals remarkable results—a fatal blow to billions of years (Evolution loses)
31. 2005-11-08 The "Vatican" Endorses "Darwin"? ["Vatican" has done no such thing
32. 2005-11-07 [Kansas] Board Votes on Evolution (Tomorrow, NOV 8 - Teaching I.D. to be approved!)
33. 2005-11-07 A pope for our times: why Darwin is back on the agenda at the Vatican
34. 2005-11-07 An Evolutionist's Evolution [Huge exhibit at Museum of Nat. History, NYC]
35. 2005-11-07 Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
36. 2005-11-07 Good genes beat good homes as guide to pupils’ school Success
37. 2005-11-07 Kennewick Man, Meet Your Distant Cousins
38. 2005-11-07 Prehistoric skull found in dump may be missing common ancestor of apes & humans
39. 2005-11-06 (Pennsylvania) Dover First Re-elect our school board
40. 2005-11-06 (Pennsylvania) Dover heads list of contested local races
41. 2005-11-06 African cousins behind extinction of Indians 70,000 years ago!
42. 2005-11-06 Evolution Is in the Air
43. 2005-11-06 Intelligent Design or Mindless Evolution
44. 2005-11-06 Science as Kansas sees it

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CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of November:
 

2000-11-10 AncientAirs 2000-11-21 AndrewC 1998-11-18 angelo 1999-11-22 Blood of Tyrants 2003-11-26 blowfish 2004-11-08 CarolinaGuitarman 1997-11-28 cd jones 2001-11-30 claptrap 2001-11-16 CobaltBlue 2005-11-10 culturewars 2002-11-21 DannyTN 2004-11-16 DaveLoneRanger 1997-11-30 Ditto 2001-11-16 dmz

2000-11-11 Ernest_at_the_Beach 2000-11-02 Exit 109 2000-11-22 FFIGHTER 2000-11-12 ForGod'sSake 2001-11-07 FourtySeven 2000-11-10 Godel 2004-11-06 GreenOgre 2000-11-04 harbinger of doom 2000-11-28 HiTech RedNeck 1999-11-05 Ichneumon 1998-11-13 jennyp 1998-11-25 Junior_G 2002-11-17 Just mythoughts 2004-11-11 kaotic133

2003-11-18 little jeremiah 1998-11-18 malakhi 2000-11-19 Mike Fieschko 2003-11-09 MplsSteve 2000-11-06 mrjeff 1999-11-05 muleskinner 2003-11-17 Nathan Zachary 2002-11-12 NCLaw441 1999-11-25 Nebullis 2000-11-13 NYer 2000-11-24 old-ager 2004-11-03 PajamaHadin 2000-11-10 Patriotic Teen 1998-11-01 Pharmboy

2000-11-11 P-Marlowe 2000-11-16 presidio9 2002-11-14 Remedy 2000-11-30 Right Wing Professor 2004-11-18 rightwinggoth 1998-11-15 rob777 1998-11-04 RobRoy 1999-11-16 TerP26 2000-11-04 TigerTale 2004-11-11 untrained skeptic 2004-11-21 VictoryGal 2000-11-05 will of the people 2003-11-29 woodb01

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In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:

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ALS angelo Area Freeper Aric2000 Askel5 biblewonk bluepistolero churchillbuff claptrap codebreaker Con X-Poser ConservababeJen DittoJed2 dob

Ed Current f.Christian followerofchrist general_re goodseedhomeschool gopwinsin04 gore3000 IllumiNOTi JediGirl JesseShurun JethroHathaway jlogajan Justice Avenger Kevin Curry

kharaku knowquest Le-Roy malakhi Marathon medved metacognative Modernman n4sir NoKinToMonkeys Ogmios peg the prophet Phaedrus Phoroneus

pickemuphere ret_medic RickyJ SeaLion Selkie Shubi Tomax tpaine Truth666 twittle Unalienable WaveThatFlag xm177e2

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Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!

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Lost CrevoSci Battlefields (Pulled Threads)

• 2004-04-27 Stop Teaching Our Kids this Evolution Claptrap!
• 2003-10-29 The Mystery of the Missing Links (Intelligent Design vs. Evolution)
• 2003-10-27 Physics Nobelist Takes Stand on Evolution
• 2003-10-23 Gene Found for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
• 2003-10-21 Artificial Proteins Assembled from Scratch
• 2003-09-23 Solar System Formation Questions
• 2003-07-18 Unlikely Group May Revive Darwin Debate [Evolution v. Creationism]
• 2003-07-02 "Unlocking the Mystery of ""Unlocking the Mystery of Life"""
• 2003-06-26 Darwin Faces a New Rival
• 2003-06-06 Amazing Creatures
• 2002-09-13 Oldest Known Penis Is 100 Million Years Old
• 2002-04-10 (Creationists) CRSC Correction
• 2001-08-28 The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [6th Revision]
• 2001-08-26 A Scientific Account of the Origin of Life on Earth [Thread I]
• 2001-01-13 A Christian Understanding of Intelligent Design
• 2000-10-10 Another Lost Generation?
• 2000-08-30 Evil-Ution
• 1999-11-14 Creationism's Success Past 5 Years: (Gallup: 1 in 10 hold secular evolutionist perspective)

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Longest CrevoSci Thread Ever

• 2002-12-11 Evolution Disclaimer Supported (6,871 replies)

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Glossary of Terms

Assumption: Premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn; "on the assumption that he has been injured we can infer that he will not to play"
Belief: Any cognitive content (perception) held as true; religious faith
Crevo:  Creation vs. evolution
CrevoSci:  Creation vs. evolution/Science
CrevoSci Warriors:  Those who take part on CrevoSci threads
Data: factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions
Dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
Fact: When an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact
Freepday:  The day a Freeper joined Free Republic
Hypothesis: A tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"
Impression: A vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"
Law: A generalization that describes recurring facts or events in nature; "the laws of thermodynamics"
Observation: Any information collected with the senses
Theory: A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

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The
official beer
of Darwin Central

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Macro-evolution is not fact, nor is it science. It is, at best, history."

There is no difference between micro and macro. Common descent is a fact. It is as scientific as anything else in science.

"Biologists are brain-washed to worship evolution as the unifying principle of biology."

We don't worship evolution, but you certainly worship your own ignorance of evolution.

"Evolution is taught as fact because the alternative is to admit we don't know. The latter is more intellectually honest, but it doesn't allow a lot of pontification."

No, to say we don't know is a lie. Lying is a sin, is it not?

[Dane]

JMO, FWIW, I don't think this universe or world was created out of random chaos or chance.

[Virginia-American]

...tell little children they are result of "common descent" mere animals. That is a "religious" ideology as there is NO evidence to show cause.

People, chimps, gorillas and other great apes are unable to produce ascorbic acid (vitamin C). Almost all other mammals can. Why is this?

Because the *exact same* mutation occurs in people, chimps, gorillas and other great apes, but nowhere else. Guinea pigs are also unable to make vitamin C; but they have a different mutation.

There are "genetic markers" called ERVs (endogenous retroviruses) that are the remains of retrovirus infections.

There are some that are unique to people, chimps, gorillas, and other organisms. However, *every one* that has been found in both gorillas and chimps has also been found in people.

Standard biology *predicts* that this pattern will continue, and explains it by common ancestry; ID and creationism are, of course, unable to make predictions, not being in on the hypothetical designer's plans.

Do you doubt that this pattern will continue? Do you have a better explanation?

Here's a discussion in a Christian forum

Do a google search; I got over 10,000 hits.

This is the same sort of genetics that is used in paternity suits and geneology research. It's considered proof beyond a reasonable doubt in court; surely it rises to the level of evidence in biology class.

[Dane]

No, to say we don't know is a lie

Then give me the 100% irrefutable proof on how this world and universe were created.

You don't have it, so in essence you are giving a clintonian like lie in your above italicized passage.

[Mr Rogers]

If you don't know the difference between micro and macro-evolution, you don't know enough to belong in the conversation.

While I am now in the military, I started as a biologist. My comments on brain-washing are based on my time getting my BS in biology.

ANYONE who says macro-evolution is a fact is either a liar or ignorant. Facts can be observed. Macro-evolution, if it occurs, takes place over millions of years - making it kind of hard to carry out experiments.

It is therefore a suitable subject of inquiry for historians, not scientists.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" Then give me the 100% irrefutable proof on how this world and universe were created."

Evolution has NEVER been about the origins of the universe, but I am sure you already knew that. That would be cosmology, which is in no way related to evolution. I am sure you also knew that NO scientific theory is ever proven 100%, but you chose to imply the opposite.

" You don't have it, so in essence you are giving a clintonian like lie in your above italicized passage."

I am not the one lying about what evolution is about. I am not the one using the Clintonian playbook. Unlike creationists, I don't need to lie.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"If you don't know the difference between micro and macro-evolution, you don't know enough to belong in the conversation. "

If you think there is any essential difference between micro and macro evolution, then you have been reading too many creationist websites.

"While I am now in the military, I started as a biologist. My comments on brain-washing are based on my time getting my BS in biology."

That doesn't mean you know what evolution is.

"ANYONE who says macro-evolution is a fact is either a liar or ignorant."

I am neither a liar, nor like you, ignorant. Common descent is a fact.

"Facts can be observed."

Atoms exist. Have you ever seen one? Has one been observed? Have you ever heard of indirect evidence?

"Macro-evolution, if it occurs, takes place over millions of years - making it kind of hard to carry out experiments. "

I guess not.

"It is therefore a suitable subject of inquiry for historians, not scientists."

Are there any facts in history?

[Dane]

Evolution has NEVER been about the origins of the universe, but I am sure you already knew that.

Huh could have fooled me, all I hear is that darwin's theory is "god' and not to be questioned.

I am not the one lying about what evolution is about. I am not the one using the Clintonian playbook. Unlike creationists, I don't need to lie.

You were the one in reply #30 who said, " No, to say we don't know is a lie.".

Well since you are implying "you know" 100% irrefutibly, put up or shut up, but since you can't put up, you use clintonian tactics.

[Virginia-American]

...It would not surprise me one bit Hillry claiming an Intelligent Design existed,,,

That would be wonderful! After all, the ID movement is basically asking for affirmative action, so it fits much better into the D*m*cr*t platform. They are the ones who approve of Afrocentric history, ebonics, etc., bravely standing up to established historians and linguists who are racists only worried about their funding.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" Huh could have fooled me, all I hear is that darwin's theory is "god' and not to be questioned."

I am sure it wasn't too difficult a task. You heard wrong.

" You were the one in reply #30 who said, " No, to say we don't know is a lie.".

Well since you are implying "you know" 100% irrefutibly, put up or shut up, but since you can't put up, you use clintonian tactics."

You are the one who lied and said that evolution is about the origins of the universe. Why should I bother discussing something further with someone who can't even make one honest statement?

[Dane]

You are the one who lied and said that evolution is about the origins of the universe. Why should I bother discussing something further with someone who can't even make one honest statement?

I ain't an expert on evolution or creationism nor do I play one on FR.

What I do know is that darwin's theory is considered unrefutable by the liberal scientific community and anybody who speaks against it or brings proof against it is considered "blasphemous".

Again JMO, but I believe this world and universe were not created by random chaos, and that is the heart of darwin's theory.