Posted on 06/16/2005 6:53:51 AM PDT by rhema
. . .People of goodwill may disagree about Terri Schiavo's case. Yet as our society strays from its traditional belief in the essential dignity of every human life, we all must grapple with the implications of the notion that some lives are "not worth living."
Today, assisted suicide is lawful in Oregon. In the Netherlands, according to the New York Times, prosecutors no longer pursue cases against doctors who kill severely impaired babies after birth. The temptation to deal with the defective and incompetent by eliminating them is likely to grow as our society ages. Today, approximately 4.5 million Americans have Alzheimer's disease. In coming decades, projections suggest that about 40 percent of us will spend roughly 10 years in an infirm, demented condition. The way we deal with this situation will say much about us as a society.
Currently, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is staging an exhibit . . . called "Deadly Medicine: Creating the Master Race." It examines the idea of "lebensunwertes Leben" -- lives not worthy of life --which the Nazis used to justify their elimination of thousands deemed unfit to live: the retarded, the defective and the seriously ill.
Some German intellectuals championed this idea well before the Nazi era began. A 1920 book, for example, decried "the meticulous care shown to existences which are not just absolutely worthless" -- the disabled and deformed -- "but even of negative value." It called for applying the "healing remedy" of premature death, in order to "eliminat[e] those who were born unfit for life or who later became so."
Today, we must ensure that we ourselves are not tempted to start down this slippery slope --moved by free choice rather than totalitarian edict, and seduced by a shallow notion of "death with dignity."
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
I'm going to start eating more saturated fat, get it over with quicker...
LQ
Conservatives were on the wrong side of this issue. Because of Terri Shaivo my wife has told me that she doesn't want to be kept alive in a PVS. But our marriage bonds apparantly don't mean anything to conservatives. The state should be the ones to decide, not me.
Excellent article...thanks for posting.
It is scary that some people think I should starve my grandmother to death (she has alzheimers). I pray for peace for Terri's biological family.
We were told that about abortion at one time also......
Since the parents lived on the joy that at least Terry could see them, and knew they were there for her,.....I thought the edict that she was BLIND was an especially nice touch. (mega sarcasm)
I'm not talking about public opinion, I'm talking about morals. What God joins together let no man separate. But we were on the side of having the state come between husband and wife.
I wouldn't consider MS a husband by any means......shacking up with another lady, having kids, etc.....that is not my definition of a husband.
Only if you completely misunderstand or misrepresent everything conservatives were saying.
What we all pointed out was that:
1. the person who had the most to gain from her death was the only person to have heard her utter the "don't want to live" statement.
2. There was no written declaration of her wish, and we all doubted that she'd have wanted to be dehydrated to death.
3. the parents were denied access and answers.
4. the parents offered to care for her themselves - so why not let them ? What did the husband lose by it ? Why didn't he just get a divorce and marry the woman he'd lived with for 10 years ?
Suppose your wife started living with another man when you fell into a PVS. Would you want your estranged wife to be the only spokesman for your death wishes, especially if your estranged wife would profit from your death is a variety of ways ?
If your wife was taking steps to divorce you at the time of your "fall", you may wish ANYbody but her was doing the decision making!
The settlement money had already been spent. This charge was made and rejected in 1998.
2. There was no written declaration of her wish
Terri told her husband that she didn't want to be kept alive. Genesis 2:23:
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. {24} Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
What part of those vows don't you understand?
4. the parents offered to care for her themselves - so why not let them ? What did the husband lose by it ? Why didn't he just get a divorce and marry the woman he'd lived with for 10 years ?
Because Terri's wish was not to be kept alive in a PVS. Michael was honoring her wish. What if your wife said she wouldn't want to be kept alive in a PVS but your wife's family disagreed?
Oh please...
He amazingly remembered this so called request 7 YEARS AFTER THE TUBE WAS PUT IN!!!
Terri's friend was instructed by attorneys NOT to mention the fact she was planning to divorce him.
Get with the facts, not just your holier than thou remarks on the sanctitiy of marriage. I bet God has a thing or two to say about abuse withinin a "marriage".
Why did it take so long for him to suddenly remember she had said that?
Always err on the side of life if there is ANY doubt.
What??????? The state should decide your life not you???
Please tell me you are not stupid and simply mistyped your comments.
The autopsy just showed that there was no evidence of abuse.
My wife has told me that she wouldn't want the feeding tube. Suppose her family did want her to keep it, and started suing left and right? Then our marriage vow would be turned into a mockery because of self-annointed conservatives.
1. the person who had the most to gain from her death was the only person to have heard her utter the "don't want to live" statement.
I don't know what "gain" there was for MS, I understand all settlement monies for Terry's care were long gone. I honestly don't know if my wife discusses her wishes with others. Are we now going to assume that anything we discuss with our spouses must now be discussed with others? How many folks are sufficient to meet this hurdle you are trying to raise, I need to create a list to be sure we are covered.
2. There was no written declaration of her wish, and we all doubted that she'd have wanted to be dehydrated to death.
What method do you supposed she wanted? We are all going to die and in most cases there will be a period of pain and suffering involved. Since you can ESP these things out what method would you choose for Terry? 30 more years away from heaven, out existing her parents, then a death by colon cancer after many surgeries maybe? Since she was under medical care and the government does not permit a painless way to be implemented, unless you are a murderer, what other options were there to satisfy her wishes?
4. the parents offered to care for her themselves - so why not let them ? What did the husband lose by it ? Why didn't he just get a divorce and marry the woman he'd lived with for 10 years ?
This sounds like you agree that if MS did not care about Terry he could have easily done just what you say. The only reason I can imagine he did go through this was to honor her wishes as I would expect my wife to do for me. It sure would have been much easier to just walk away. I only pray that I can show this same strength to meet my wife's wishes if heaven forbid something like this happens in our family.
I suppose if my wife started living with another man, that very same day I would be speaking with my lawyer initiating divorce proceedings and changing all my legal documents.
ping
Why do you suppose she wanted a divorce??? Because he was such a loyal and loving husband?????????
I agree, I am going to eat and drink what ever I want.
New Motto: Be Fat, Be Drunk, and Die Before The Dementia Sets In!!!
The best way to get it over with quicker is to get in a crowded inner city bus and hurl racial insults (aka "epitatphs" if reading the media account the next day).
Having been in an abusive relationship, I KNOW God would not want that for me AND guess what? There is not a single sign on my body that it happened but it did.
I would PRAY that my loving family would tend to me over such a monster that I unfortunaley married.
Not all marriages are beautiful things, jib!!!
The thing to do and what God always wants is the loving thing.
Terri's friends, after the fact, claimed that she was seeking a divorce. Even though Michael was on good terms with Terri's family for years after the accident. This is much like the evidence of the "abuse".
What we do know is that Michael is her husband, but the "conservatives" apparantly don't care about that.
At least my way is enjoyable!!
Thanks for the ping!
Your particular problem can be solved by your wife telling her family her wishes as well.
Better yet, she can write them down and give you AND her family a copy.
That way, everyone's on the same page, so to speak.
BTW, if she is found unconscious just after she decides to divorce you, all bets are off and her parents get her.
" I know you would of swear that Bulimia caused the collapse but we now know that there is no evidence for it,"
We also know that she did not have a heart attack either.
The coroner stated that her heart was 'strong' and in 'good condition' and probably was the reason she lasted so long AFTER the tube was removed the last time.
My entire family thought my parents were happily married until the day my mother kicked my father out.
An independant government review of decisions that used to be between husband and wife? If it were the liberals doing this we would correctly be pointing out this is yet another attack on the sanctity of marriage.
You used a bible quote to justify the right of the husband to kill, is there other quotes that justify mercy killing. I thought that God should be the one to determine death other than his ten commandments to Man.
His wife said she didn't want to be kept alive. That is also what my wife told me during the Shaivo sage.
There are other slippery slopes besides mercy killings. There is the increasing intrusiveness of medical technology. We may not be able to heal damaged brains but we can keep the body alive. We could have millions of elderly who would have died from strokes all with living bodies kept alive in PVS. We are going to have to confront that slippery slope also.
What is the dignified way to live or die?
My wife has told me that she doesn't want to be kept alive in a PVS and trusts me to make the decision. I've said the same to her. That is what marriage should be. But if "conservatives" have their way, that doesn't matter until we get our family's approval, and possibly have an independent review.
So because some marriages are unhappy or even abusive we should just throw out the concept of marriage vows? Are we Christian conservatives or are we liberal feminists?
Some husbands, and Michael was an estranged husband with a mistress, have serious conflicts of interest and should not be appointed guardians. Take the van Klaus case, he was removed as her guardian and replaced with her children.
In this day and age, a wife is not the property of her husband and where there is even a suspicion of attempted murder (van Klaus's conviction was overturned or was it that another jury disagreed?)
In Terri's case, Michael was caught in numerous lies, did not act in her best interest, and showed his sadistic nature by, among many others misdeeds, not wanting her parents to know where she is buried.
We only have MS's statement that Terri said she did not want to be kept alive. MS lied about Terri's food disorder and having a heart problem. We now know from the autopsy that she had neither. So why should we believe now that he told the truth about her wishes to die? NO ONE WANTS TO BE STARVED TO DEATH. As long as the parents were willing to care for their daughter, she should have been placed with them. The state had no right to take her life. Only God has the right to take a life. And if you don't believe that, you are no better than a pig wallowing in mud.
"conservatives" want to limit the power of the marriage contract. And yet they also accuse the liberals of attacking marriage!
Some husbands, and Michael was an estranged husband with a mistress, have serious conflicts of interest and should not be appointed guardians.
My wife goes into a PVS and for a few years we see what we can do. We give up but now I can't legally pull the tube (even though she told me she wanted me to) because her family and a bunch of "conservatives" decide otherwise. This goes on for a long time. Five years after the accident and maybe two years after when I would have originally pulled the plug I start a new family. 10 years after accident people say that I'm not even her husband anymore and should give up my spousal rights to her family.
Um, did God plug her into the feeding tube? If it were up to God she would have died years ago and been at his side instead of listening to all this blather.
If you have your way, I would not be allowed to make the same decision for my wife, God forbid that she end up in a PVS.
God also said Thou Shall Not Kill.... but of course.. you can if it's convenient eh? Even God says that one may divorce if there is adultery, but He never says it is ok to kill your spouse if you think they want you to. Or if their mental state is not up to par. BTW, when one is married, God also says you can't have sex with someone else if your spouse is ill.. you sound like a typical pick and choose moralist..
"We were on the side of having the state come between husband and wife".
No were on the side of stopping a murder by any means possible. By your rationalization, it was wrong to prosecute Scott Peterson because after all we were coming between a husband and wife.
So there is no degree of intrusiveness of life support that can't be removed then? As technology improves more and more people with damaged brains will be able to be kept alive.
The bible says that adultury is a reason to divorce but the bible also recommends reconciliation if possible. The only evidence of this divorce comes from Terri's friends after everything fell out. MS was on good terms with Terri's family for years.
Let's go back to the hypothetical of my wife: she is in a PVS and her family wants her alive. Years after I would have pulled the plug but was not allowed to I meet someone else.
If the autopsy showed evidence of abuse then we should try MS for abuse. But the abuse angle was a figment of the imagination of those that would have the government separate what God joined together.
We didn't separate a husband and wife. That was Michael's choice. If he wanted to stay with her, why didn't he? Why did he leave her for those other women? If he didn't want to separate what God joined together, why did he kill her? No, you can't blame us for that.
Suppose my wife goes into a PVS and after a few years of treatment she doesn't improve. She has already told me doesn't want to be in Terri's state. So I pull the feeding tube and mourn for her. Five years later I meet another woman and we start a new life together.
Oh wait, I can't because "conservatives" have said I can't pull the plug without her family's approval.
The foundation was laid decades ago and the building is awaiting a roof. Good luck to those who choose to retire in this country. My husband and I are choosing otherwise.
Well said, Yellowdoghunter. Always err on the side of life is there is any doubt. We are moving toward a time when, due to immigration, we are going to have a crowded country with increasingly heavy demands on medical facilities. The easy way out will be to dispose of the "useless" elderly and handicapped. It will be a test for us, just as Terry Schiavo was a test - one that was failed.
That's a very interesting fantasy you've described, but it has nothing to do with what happened to Terri. Maybe you should take the time to read up on her situation.
If you had the option to request a lethal injection, would you choose that course instead for her?
No abuse, no "conservative" believes that Terri told him she wouldn't want to be kept alive in a PVS, but they do believe Terri's friends who say she was getting a divorce even though Terri never talked to a lawyer or filed any paperwork, and even though MS was on good terms with Terri's family for the first several years of the PVS. No "conservative" in this thread at least accepts a marriage contract as being sufficient for a husband to make that decision. It must be augmented with a living will.
I have no idea what I would do if I were in that situation. What I do know is that I wouldn't want a bunch of judges and "conservatives" to make that decision for me (or for my wife, if I were the one in a PVS). This is a private matter between me and my wife.
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