Posted on 05/06/2005 9:58:46 AM PDT by eccentric
We had something like that in Cleveland last month.
Troubled no good son killed his brother. Mom walks in and asks what is going on (boys are adults) and he says, "I killed $%&". She makes the 911 call.
I don't remember if the guy killed himself or is just going to get hauled to the chair, but I believe these are her only chidren.
Holy ____!
This kid planned this!
All known threats to his achievement of killing his father were outside. And he walked out in his underwear? I'm sorry, but at 10 years old, modesty is a big deal. And he didn't kill the strangers who took him in.
I hate to note such a thing in such a situation.
However, it's a potentially potent time and therefore necessary:
1) I recognize that THEORETICALLY bad kids can come from good parenting.
2) I have, in 30 odd years of counseling and 50 odd years of watching very closely,
NEVER
seen such a case.
3) Given enough observation or often just a few questions, it was relatively easy to track down the weakness in the parenting.
4) 30 years or so ago there was a study of all the other studies about parenting. The question was, what kind of parenting yields children who as adults are successful in life.
Success in life was defined as
--off welfare
--successful marriage
--no trouble with the law
--maybe another variable I've forgotten
They studied all manner of discipline from none to laize faire to strict as well as inconsistent. They examined socio/economic status. They examined size of families. They examined values . . . all kinds of things.
ONE FACTOR accounted for 80% of the variance.
The one factor was . . . . WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS?
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
Did the child FEEL LOVED.
Not WAS the child LOVED--did the child FEEL LOVED.
Was it communicated effedctively to the child.
5) Also, I think even a lot of Christian parents horribly neglect obeying the very important Scripture: AVOID PROVOKING YOUR CHILDREN TO WRATH.
6) We don't have, to my knowledge, any information about whether the grandparents had the boy from birth or after the critical first 6-8 years of life.
7) There seems highly likely to be some less than kosher somethings going on in the family or the grandparents would not be tasked with taking their grandkids anyway. And, it seems like the grandkids became their responsibility in such a timing or sequence that implies that the grandparents child--mother?--must have had the grandkids at her own overly young age. If so, that's a big red flag, too.
8) The grandmother made the comment that granddad was always there for the son. IN WHAT MANNER, TONE, ATTITUDE? The grandfather could have always been there in a way that subtly or not so subtly communicated that the grandson could never measure up no matter how hard he tried. That would also be consistent with a daughter leaving home early or getting knocked up early to get back at dad or out of sheer exasperation, frustration, need for some acceptance and comfort.
9) The grandmother makes the comment that she CANNOT forgive. That also is a red blag clue that the standards, emotions, strictures in the family are less than kosher. One can imagine that tons of little infractions were never really and truly forgiven and let go. Such things build up--especially in some personalities.
10) Certainly we are all born polluted with sin. And, all sin is deadly in one form or way or another. But I've observed very few children who seem to have been so demonized coming out of the womb that there was relatively little chance for deliverance made available that was very effective. But it does happen--the sins of the fathers visited upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation etc. I don't think that was the case here. Sounds more like the above stuff 1-9.
11) I have a lot of compassion for the grandmother. But truth needs to be part of compassion at some point. And, if she wants to be with God in eternity based on His forgiveness of her own sins--SHE WILL HAVE TO FORGIVE HER GRANDSON. No other option.
Mostly I agree with you.
But sociopaths get created very early on. It's not all genetics. IT's not all conditioning. The combination somehow is deadly. And their consciences get effectively neutered very early on.
Perhaps it's what the Bible talks about--a conscience being seared as with a hot iron.
Mostly I agree. But it is a complex picture--particularly with some types of people in some contexts.
The conscience gets effectively neutered.
Some of it seems to be biochemical. They have a predisposition to not being aroused by danger, fear etc.
And that part seems to be genetic. When this predisposition exists and the parenting is within a certain range of dysfunctional/horrid--then a sociopath seems to result.
I think that some professionals believe that sociopathology is mostly genetic. I don't.
No kidding. I used to monitor the Nintendo games for my son....and about the only thing that wasn't real violent was Mario, Racing. Baseball, etc. If anyone gave him games for birthday's that weren't appropriate, we traded them. The games then were mild to what the kids play now.
I realized how immature kid's mental processes were.... when at age 11, my daughter asked me if the movie "Back to the Future", was "true" or not.
I agree on both counts.
The sociopath virtually always thinks they can get away with whatever they want to do. Sometimes that may be a deciding factor--if they think they can get away with it--but usually they think they can. And, most often, they are slick enough at guaging the responses and perceptiveness of those around them that they can get away with tons for years.
They have no emotion--even PET AND MRI scans of them watching various cues on video reveal that they have no normal fear. They have no normal arousal about a list of things. It is as though their brain/brain chemistry is turned off to a whole list of things that a normal brain would register at the level of a scream.
For some reason, I'm reminded of learned helplessness. Train a dog in a Skinner box to turn around to the right to get food. Then to the left. Then back up etc. etc. AT some stage, set the contingencies so that whatever the dog does, he gets shocked and no food. Shortly he will just cower in the corner--learned helplessness.
I sometimes wonder if at a very critical stage--early--the child is just soooooooo frustrated in getting their feelings and wants to register effectively--that even their predispositioned brain chemistry gets conditioned in an off stage in terms of fear, risk factors, right/wrong etc.
But it's been a long while since I've studied it much.
ONLY IF
there is absolutely NO capacity to know and choose right from wrong.
This is nothing humanist about believing that people are born with good in them.
It is satanic to believe that people are born with only evil in them.
So you do not believe in free will.
Good for you.
But a father figure will also need to be very healthily affectionate with him and it's none too early at 13. Tricky to start. But if hasn't been--I consider it very, very vital for it to begin.
Mamma cannot love into a son the fatherly masculine things that must be imparted to avoid all kinds of screwy stuff.
I agree with you.
Interesting that he had fear in his eyes at the Moore home.
A sociopath would not have had fear at all. Indifference.
That's not what I was taught or believe.
Why did you
LEAVE OUT
the
"IF"
from my sentence?
My point was that your statement would be true
ONLY
IF
there was absolutely NO capacity to know and choose right from wrong.
I believe we are virtually always born with some capacity to know and choose right from wrong.
If you read some of the articles, the boy, while at the Moore's home, said he fears a big spanking for what he's done. Sounds to me as if he feared punishment- to the degree it was given will be what is debated.
I noticed that. Which takes him out of the sociopath category, to me--tentatively.
I would like to know how much his mother drank during pregnancy.
However, this also indicates he has some connection between cause and effect.
I Tim 4:1-2
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, . . . . having their conscience seared with a hot iron."
If it is possible for professing believers to have their conscience seared, how much more those that have never professed a faith, in these latter days?
It is satanic to believe that people are born with only evil in them.
It is everything humanist, that would believe that man is prone to good works...
We are born sinners. It is only by the Grace of God, that we are allowed to spend eternity with Him. But, it does come with a price. That 'price' is called 'faith"... sadly, you may be lacking that one!
Romans 3:10-23-
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
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