Opinion: Apple -- Here to Stay

Nearly a decade ago, just a few months after Microsoft shipped Windows 95, I asked Bill Gates if it was a conscious decision in the development of that product to give Windows more of a Mac look and feel. Of course I knew he'd say it wasn't, but I couldn't resist asking. "There was no goal even to compete with Macintosh," Gates proclaimed. "We don't even think of Macintosh as a competitor."

That was a crock, so I pressed the issue a little. I asked him how he accounted for the widespread perception that Windows 95 looked a lot like Mac 88, and whether the similarity was just a coincidence. I didn't expect a sobbing confession of mimicry, but I thought it would be cool to see how he'd respond. Surprisingly enough, Gates shifted gears and became more forthcoming.

You really are dense. I'll try it again. Let's say I have a vehicle, it is used to transport people around for pay. While it is still technically a vehicle (as firmware is still technically software), people now call it a taxi because of its current use (just as people now call that software firmware). I never said firmware isn't software in a technical sense, I said we call it firmware when it's put on the chip.

Speaking of dense - are you claiming this:

taxi<>vehicle

You have a lot of nerve to call other people dense when you make absurd statements like that.

Let me illustration your example:

taxi=vehicle (100% of taxis are vehicles)

vehicle<>taxi (100% of vehicles are not taxis)

unless you can explain when a taxi is not a vehicle - taxi=vehicle

(as firmware is still technically software)

You don't know when to stop digging. If firmware is technically software - how the heck can you claim firmware is not software!

By "unscrew and remove", I meant in the sense of a piece of hardware. I agree with you that firmware is a set of instructions, hence, software. The intent of firmware, however, is to be treated differently on a day-to-day basis from other types of software, which are routinely started up, shut down, and generally used as applications. Firmware, on the other hand, seems to me to operate on more of a fundamental level, directly instructing and controlling hardware or systems on how to be that particular hardware or system.

I agree with all of that.

The origin of this debate:

antiRepublicrat claimed Compaq reverse-engineered the hardware of the IBM PC.

I corrected his mistake and showed him Compaq reverse-engineered the software (the bios)

antiRepublicrat has been spending days trying to spin firmware into being hardware.

That is the MO of this firmware=software debate.

Petronski and Swordmaker have been spending days trying to claim firmware is not software in support of antiRepublicrat

Which included writeable EPROMs and EEPROMs against what you said.

Not true. I pointed out only one of the definitions mention EEPROMS or the lack of a read-only requirement. BTW: EPROMs are not equatable to EEPROMs. EEPROMs can be written to within you computer - EPROMs can not so they are pretty much read-only in this context.

My position has nothing to do with read-only aspect of the definition of firmware - other than nearly all definitions have a read-only requirement.

My point is firmware is software and you have already admitted my position is correct.

Give it up - changing the subject will not help.

You were wrong: Compaq did not reverse-engineer the hardware and firmware is not hardware.

Speaking of dense - are you claiming this: taxi<>vehicle

AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! I claimed no such thing. Take reading lessons.

Let's try programming terms. The class Vehicle has an internal property called "WhatDoICallIt," and the constructor initializes this property to "Vehicle" when an object is instantiated. There are various classes that extend the class Vehicle; however, the constructors of many of these child classes override the constructor of the parent class that sets the "WhatDoICallIt" property. Sometimes it's overridden to be "Bus," sometimes "Taxi." In all cases it's still a Vehicle since it's a child of the Vehicle class, but we don't call it that anymore since the "WhatDoICallIt" property has been changed.

Likewise, the class Firmware extends the class Software, but upon instantiation of a Firmware object, the "WhatDoICallIt" proprety is been internally set to "Firmware."

You can't see the forest through the trees. A guy who straight-out proclaims that "EPROM's are PROM's" [sic] is getting on me for some sloppy typing. Rediculous.

You getting desperate and irrational now.

Either you know absolutely nothing about the subject or you are getting irrational because you can't spin this debate into a win for you.

EPROM's are PROM's

Don't be a bozo.

PROM - Programmable Read-Only Memory.

Are EPROM's Programmable Read-Only Memory.

They sure as heck are.

[sic]

What are you claiming is misspelled? EPROM? PROM?

You have tried for days to spin firmware into something other than software. It is not working.

What a weird example. You are one confused dude. First you freak out when I asked if you were claiming: taxi<>vehicle you said "AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!" but later in that same message you state "In all cases it's still a Vehicle since it's a child of the Vehicle class, but we don't call it that anymore" which means Vehicle<>Taxi

In your example the "WhatDoICallIt" property is purely arbitrary so the example does not work. The property could be set to "dEf$". We are debating the nature of something, not arbitrary labels

The ocean water example is the simplest - no complicated concept to comprehend. Lets try it again so you can understand your error:

I go to the beach.

I take a cup.

I fill the cup with ocean water.

100% of the contents of the cup = ocean water.

But:

100% of ocean water<> the contents of my cup.

You seem to be claiming that since the cup does not contain all of the available ocean water than I can not say the contents of my cup=ocean water.

To sum up:

the contents of my cup=ocean water

ocean water<>the contents of my cup

the contents of my cup=firmware

ocean water=software

EPROM's are PROM's ... Are EPROM's Programmable Read-Only Memory.

No, they're Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory. An EPROM is not just a PROM that's been made writable, it's a completely different creature with completely different underlying technologies for the storage, writing and (in the case of the EPROM) resetting/erasing. You cannot equate the two. They are mutually exclusive. You might as well say a PROM is just a writable ROM, which is also quite false.

Talk about not knowing anything about the subject. Read the post, it'll educate you.

What are you claiming is misspelled? EPROM? PROM?

Basic grammar school stuff. You do not make PROM plural by adding an apostrophe, as that would be making it possessive ("This PROM's price is $2"). The correct plural is just adding an "s" ("It will cost $12 for six PROMs"). It's not a typo, as you do it every time.

guy who straight-out proclaims that "EPROM's are PROM's" [sic] is getting on me for some sloppy typing. Rediculous.

BTW: stating "PROM's are EPROM's" would be in error - similar to the error you are making in conjunction with firmware and software.

Still trying to figure out why you included "[sic]" - are you claiming EPROM is not spelled EPROM or PROM is not spelled PROM or do you not like the "'s" for plural? You might want to do some searching around - that is a very common way of showing a plural state. I think you are just blindly striking out - trying to find something to attack.

"In all cases it's still a Vehicle since it's a child of the Vehicle class, but we don't call it that anymore" which means Vehicle<>Taxi

WRONG! I obviously went over your head using basic object-oriented programming terminology. Changing a property of an object does not change the nature of the entire object, it only changes that property, in this case "WhatDoICallIt."

I honestly do not know how to explain it to you more simply than I have tried. Set theory and OO is beyond you.

One last try though. Do you get the joke, "The definition of an Infidel: A Christian in Saudi Arabia or a Muslim in Alabama."?

No, they're Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory. An EPROM is not just a PROM that's been made writable, it's a completely different creature with completely different underlying technologies for the storage, writing and (in the case of the EPROM) resetting/erasing. You cannot equate the two. They are mutually exclusive. You might as well say a PROM is just a writable ROM, which is also quite false

You are losing it.

Are EPROM's Programmable Read-Only Memory?

Yes.

Does PROM = Programmable Read-Only Memory?

Yes

Is Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory, Programmable Read-Only Memory?

yes.

Now you are just acting like a bozo.

You are using the same faulty logic you used in conjunction with firmware and software.

Different types of ROM (Read-Only Memory):
ROM
PROM
EPROM

Different types of PROM's (Programmable Read-Only Memory):
PROM
EPROM

An EPROM (erasable programmable read-only memory) is a special type of PROM that can be erased by exposing it to ultraviolet light.
-webopedia

EPROM is a type of PROM. The fact it can be erased does not change the fact it is Programmable Read-Only Memory.

Give it up - you are getting irrational.

That is my point. Your property is arbitrary - it has nothing to do with the nature of the class therefore it is not analogous to the firmware=software issue.

Hint: firmware does not inherit from software - it is software. Just as 100% of the contents of my cup=ocean water - it does not inherit from ocean water - it is ocean water.

I honestly do not know how to explain it to you more simply than I have tried. Set theory and OO is beyond you.

I have been working in object oriented design for over 15 years. Your example did not work. Assigning an arbitrary value to a property does not change it's nature. Are you or are you not claiming: vehicle <> taxi ?

I see you refuse to address the ocean water example. Why? Because it clearly states your error and you can't spin that away.

There is a simple question that would prove your point: When is firmware not software? If you can answer this question - you have a leg to stand on. If you can't answer the question - your position is nonsense.

Firmware is either software or it is something else - define the something else or accept the fact that firmware is software.

BTW: stating "PROM's are EPROM's" would be in error - similar to the error you are making in conjunction with firmware and software.

Firmware and software at least have a relation, since firmware is what you call software in certain settings. We had a discussion about the semantics and definitions of firmware/software, which as you've noticed even differs depending on source.

But stating a PROM is an EPROM is just ignorant. PROMs and EPROMs are completely different things. A ROM is mask-based, a PROM is fuse-based, and an EPROM is capacitor-based. PROMs are written using a current since you're trying to blow fuses, and they are digital because a fuse is either blown or not blown (0 or 1). EPROMs are written using a voltage to discharge the capacitors, and are more analog because there can be varying degrees of charges left in the capacitors, the 1s and 0s determined based on a threshold amount of charge sensed.

They are so absolutely different that anyone who knows what he's talking about couldn't state that. .

You might want to do some searching around - that is a very common way of showing a plural state.

Now wait one minizzle. Ebonics is a perfectly acceptable way of communicating in some circles, too, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's correct either. An' dat's da fo one one, know wha' ahm sayin', beeeeyatch?

An EPROM (erasable programmable read-only memory) is a special type of PROM that can be erased by exposing it to ultraviolet light. -webopedia

Webopedia isn't a good source. You might want to find someone who has actually worked with these, like me.

The fact it can be erased does not change the fact it is Programmable Read-Only Memory.

You cannot take a PROM and make it erasable. You have to develop a completely new device using a completely different technology in order to develop an EPROM. One is not derived from the other. They are completely separate.

"Anyone at mac have a clue why Macs (with their superior software) never topped PC's? No, they probably still dont "

Because any moron can run a PC, and you have never heard of a Mac Mini?

$499.00 and it will run rings around a Dell, gateway piece of crap.

But I digress. Used windows for >15 years not a bad OS but for reliability you can't beat UNIX, on a MAC you just get a superior product, although some SW is pricey it is still superior.

IMHO

Assigning an arbitrary value to a property does not change it's nature.

You confuse me. You write words of understanding, yet you don't understand. You're exactly right. Changing the property "WhatDoICallIt" does not change the fundamental nature of the Taxi object, which is an object of class "Taxi," which is derived from the Vehicle class, and is therefore by its nature a Vehicle. However, notice we did change the "WhatDoICallIt" property from "Vehicle" to "Taxi." We also added the property "TaxiNumber" and the method "ReceivePayment." We also probably incremented the internal fields "RunOverPedestrianFrequency" and decremented "HonkInterval."

On to firmware, it follows the same as Vehicle/Taxi, but we also changed the properties "storage medium" and "function," and added a "flash" method. It's still software, but because of its special place and function, we do not call it software anymore. My DVD writer manufacturer has software downloads, this is cool to install in my computer to write DVDs. It also has firmware downloads to flash the DVD writer. Note they didn't call it software, they called it firmware. They're not denying it's software, but they properly call it firmware.

Why? Because it clearly states your error and you can't spin that away.

Because it has nothing to do with any point I've made, only twisted interpretations you've made despite me telling you they're wrong.

But stating a PROM is an EPROM is just ignorant. PROMs and EPROMs are completely different things.

That is what I said - although they are not completely different things.

A ROM is mask-based, a PROM is fuse-based, and an EPROM is capacitor-based.

So.

ROM is Read Only-Memory - how it works is trivia.

PROM is Programmable Read-Only Memory - how it works is trivia

EPROM is Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory - how it works is trivia

EPROM is PROM and it is ROM - it is also Erasable.

The name explains the function - not the methods used to achieve the function.

They are so absolutely different that anyone who knows what he's talking about couldn't state that. .

You are just making a fool out of yourself. You are trying to claim Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory is not Programmable Read-Only Memory. You may understand computer technology but you are now coming unglued and making irrational comments.

I guess I am going to have to rub your nose in it:

PROM

Short for programmable read-only memory, a memory chip on which data can be written only once. Once a program has been written onto a PROM, it remains there forever. Unlike RAM, PROMs retain their contents when the computer is turned off.

The difference between a PROM and a ROM (read-only memory) is that a PROM is manufactured as blank memory, whereas a ROM is programmed during the manufacturing process. To write data onto a PROM chip, you need a special device called a PROM programmer or PROM burner. The process of programming a PROM is sometimes called burning the PROM.

An EPROM (erasable programmable read-only memory) is a special type of PROM that can be erased by exposing it to ultraviolet light. Once it is erased, it can be reprogrammed. An EEPROM is similar to a PROM, but requires only electricity to be erased.

What was that you said: " They[EPROM's and PROM's] are so absolutely different that anyone who knows what he's talking about couldn't state that [EPROM's are PROM's]"

antiRepublicrat, you need to contact the Webopedia people so you can tell them they don't know what they are talking about.

When you come unglued - you do it big time

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