Att: Banglist. GOA , H.R. 418, and SD HB 1209

banglist, could some of you guys and gals that are 2nd amendment watch dogs take a look at this Fed Gvt Bill - HR 418 and help me out here. my state is easily passing a Bill (SD HB 1209) that seems to coincide rather handily with HR 418 and i'm feeling a little nervous. are GOA and SDGO (South Dakota Gun Owners) correct in what they are saying about these two bills or do you think they are over reacting? thanks for any help.

http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm The National ID card is back in the news, as Congress is getting set once again to debate the issue.

You will remember that late last year, Congress passed (and the President signed) legislation which starts us down the road to a National ID card. In the name of preventing alien terrorists from operating in this country, the so-called Intelligence Reform bill gave federal bureaucrats unprecedented new powers to force changes in state-issued driver's licenses -- including, possibly, the addition of computer chip technology that can facilitate the tracking of all U.S. citizens.

Now, the House will be debating new legislation, H.R. 418, that was recently introduced by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). In considering this bill, the U.S. House will vote on whether to empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license -- and under what conditions.

Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer, this will give BATFE the expanded ability to impose even greater forms of gun control -- something which it has long coveted. This will become even more apparent if an anti-gun Democrat like Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in 2008.

H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure." But GOA joined a large coalition of citizen-activist organizations this week in opposition to H.R. 418. In a letter to Congress, the coalition stated:

"Standardization of driver's licenses has long been recognized as a bureaucratic back-door to implementation of a national ID card. With its required linking of databases and ability of the Secretary of Homeland Security to require a prescribed format, HR 418 takes us well along that road. Concerns are further heightened when the bill fails to even provide lip service to privacy concerns, and proposes to share all of our data on the driver's license database with Canada and Mexico."

Realizing government's tendency towards mission creep, no one should be surprised if this database grows to contain far more information than that which is relevant to driving. HR 418 requires that the database shall contain "at a minimum," all information contained on the driver's license as well as driving history. There is no limit to what other information may eventually be contained in the database -- something which should definitely concern gun owners.

H.R. 418 is being touted as a way of cleaning up some of the problems with the law that was enacted last December. But this bill is still an attack on states' rights. It still takes us down the road to a National ID card. And it would still do nothing to keep real terrorists from operating in our country.

ACTION: Please contact your Representative and urge him or her to oppose H.R. 418. You can use the Take Action Now feature to send a pre-written message.

http://sdgo.org/alertarchive/Database_Background.htm Background on the Pistol Permit Police-Radio Database

The anti-gun crowd has always wanted a police operated central registry for concealed pistol permit holders.

Now they are close to getting it, thanks to a compromise engineered by a gun lobbyist David Conway.

House Bill 1209 has been introduced and passed through the South Dakota House of Representatives. It must still pass the Senate and be signed by the Governor to become law.

Under the guise of protecting gun owners, HB 1209 repeals the current state law prohibiting a pistol permit police-radio database and specifically grants law-enforcement the authority to establish one.

Currently, each permit holder’s information is kept in the Secretary of State’s office as a matter of public record, and is accessible during business hours. While the law requiring the permit is in itself a denial of the right to self-defense, up till now the permit system has not been abused.

But if HB 1209 is passed, the door to abuse will be wide open. The bill expressly allows a pistol permit police-radio database. Once such a database has been established, it will almost certainly be presented to our law-enforcement officers as a means of protection from folks who have a permit.

This is exactly how the database was presented in 2001, when the anti-gunners first introduced a bill to create a new central registry. They claimed that officers need to know if a person has a permit, so that with “a heightened awareness” of the potential threat, they can take action to protect themselves. Sen. J.P. Duniphan, sponsor of the original database bill, put it this way, “I think any tool we can make to make our law enforcement officers safer, and yes, I hope they have a heightened awareness if they know a gun is in the car, because, potentially, their life may depend on it."

In other words, if you have a permit to carry a gun for self-defense, you are somehow more likely to be dangerous than someone who doesn’t have a permit. Thus the database would present a profile that would be misleading at best. It would suggest to the officer that if you have a pistol permit, you are a threat.

Bottom line, this database tells our officers that permit holders, as a class, constitute a special threat and need to be treated differently than the general population.

In reality, however, concealed pistol permit holders are among the most law-abiding people in the state. Currently, there are approximately 43,000 permits. Of these, less than one half of one tenth of one percent have been revoked for any reason. Law-enforcement has nothing to fear from model citizens like these.

Database proponents also claim that they are only trying to help gun owners who might forget to carry their permit card. They are spreading the absolute falsehood that current state law somehow requires law-enforcement to detain and even lock up someone who forgets their permit card. This is simply not true. It is a petty offense if you forget your permit. The officer can only detain you long enough to write a ticket. Furthermore, the law provides that if you produce the permit within 24 hours, the petty offense charge must be dismissed. You can read the law at SDCL 22-14-9.1

So why has the database bill unanimously passed the House? The answer is simple: COMPROMISE.

Gun owners across the state overwhelmingly defeated the original database bill in 2001. In 2002, South Dakota Gun Owners lead the charge to pass the current law prohibiting the database when the anti-gunners moved ahead to establish their central registry.

In response to these defeats, the anti-gunners have changed their tack. Rather than attempting to obtain the database over the opposition of gun owners, they have cut a backroom deal with gun lobbyist David Conway, who represents South Dakota Shooting Sports Assoc.

Mr. Conway wants to advance the right to carry by recognizing out-of-state pistol permits. This is obviously an excellent goal. But instead of working with gun owners from across the state to build the necessary grassroots muscle, he went to the anti-gun crowd and asked them what they would need in order to approve his bill.

The anti-gunners jumped at the chance. As a result, they have agreed to “cautiously accept” the recognition bill (introduced as HB 1190), with the stipulation that they will be back next year with more gun control to “fix” the “problems” it will cause. For his part, Mr. Conway has been working to sell the anti-gun database bill (HB 1209) as a measure that will help gun owners by allowing law-enforcement to verify the validity of their permits. He claims that HB 1209 completely safe-guards the permit information from any kind of misuse.

In reality, Section 2, subsection (5) of the bill clearly allows a pistol permit police-radio database. Amendments have been offered in order to mollify the opposition to this clearly anti-gun bill. But the amendments are simply smoke and mirrors. They are cleverly worded, but provide NO actual safeguards.

Mr. Conway’s organization, South Dakota Shooting Sports, is affiliated with the NRA. Unfortunately, he has used this relationship to obtain an NRA endorsement for the new anti-gun database bill. Anyone who reads this endorsement will wonder if NRA has actually read the bill. It appears that they have also become victims of the misinformation and downright falsehoods being spread about HB 1209.

So while the bill to recognize out-of-state permits (HB 1190) is good pro-gun legislation, the trade for HB 1209 that Mr. Conway has engineered creates dangers far outweighing any benefits. Conway’s “one step forward and two steps back” strategy is obviously a move in the wrong direction. Where is our right to bear arms if we cannot carry without harassment?

here's the SD HB 1209 http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2005/bills/HB1209HST.htm

right after i posted this i found this thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1342969/posts

Rep Ron Paul seems to agree with GOA?

i know Paul can be a bit out there on some things - but no one can say he has ever not been 100% pro 2nd amendment. and for that i appreciate him. just like i did Zell.

"Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer"

Not necessarily so. A license is merely a convenient way to prove identification and residency. You can use a passport for identification and an electric bill or phone bill to prove residency. I have done this, in fact I carry my passport at all times and never show my driver's license unless I am stopped while driving. Sometimes people ask again for a license but so far 100% have caved when asked "So you you are not going to accept a US passport as identification?"

hey atomic dog... are you on the bang list? if so, could you ping some of the members? this SD Bill is in the Sen Committee today and may go for vote on the sen floor very soon. so far, just a couple of very pro-2nd amendment Republican senators have come out against this SD bill.

--could you summarize or give me a reference on what changes in reciprocity are being considered , if any--?

--according to packing.org, SD is fairly liberal already on reciprocity--

You stated: H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure". You have right to be concerned. Let me give you a few quotes from our Founding Fathers.
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands].
Thomas Jefferson, Draft Constitution for the State of Virginia, June,
Keep America in your prayers

Charles Nielsen

this SD bill will make it possible for LE to keep and use your info on gun Permits. before that info was sent to the SG office and it was in NO shared data base. that will no longer be the case with this bill.

NRA is for this bill, me thinks they were sold by the argument that if someone FORGOT to carry their permit on them this bill would make it *easier* for the LE to check you and send you on your way. but i tend to agree with SDGO that this bill will allow LE to target permit holders. and who says that info will not be shared between states and the Feds when the Fed Bill goes into effect?

NRA is for this bill, me thinks they were sold by the argument that if someone FORGOT to carry their permit on them this bill would make it *easier* for the LE to check you and send you on your way.

LOL! What a sorry excuse. Then the NRA should be for gun registration, because it would make it easier for the police to return stolen guns to their rightful owners - like the ones collected at "buybacks."

Time to start buying most of my firearms privatly from local want ad's and newspapers... We can kiss the 2nd ammendment good bye! Things have a way of compounding.. and from the looks of it, we have a major problem in the near future,, well we have a major problem already..

Seems so. People have been buying and swapping guns for years and years here, and putting them away too, so there is a very deep resource all around. I cannot really envision NO happening everywhere else, but.....

Hey, deer hunting is nice, and important...but as they say..."it ain't about deer hunting."

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