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Sure, Hold Your Nose, But Colleagues Odors Pose Serious Problem
Wall Street Journal Online ^ | July 21, 2004 | Jared Sandberg

Posted on 07/21/2004 9:16:51 AM PDT by BluegrassScholar

Larry Isaacson's nose is so sensitive to perfume that he gets woozy, loses his appetite and can develop an itchy rash that blooms behind his ears when he is exposed to it.

So when a colleague recently slathered on perfume that emanated well beyond her personal space, Mr. Isaacson found himself employing his usual tactics. They include avoidance, which means standing several feet away from the cloud and holding his breath until it passes. If trapped in close proximity for an extended time, he breathes through his mouth. And his most passive tactic, which sometimes works best: waiting for someone else to go through the embarrassment of notifying the offender.

This time he also held an impromptu meeting in the kitchen with several sympathetic colleagues and tried to brainstorm some smell strategies for the future, including screening smelly people during the interview process.

"It should be treated like smoking," he argues. "There should be signs."

Perfume isn't the only second-hand smell that harms indoor air quality. Any body odors strong enough to spread beyond their perpetrators' cubicles are bound to upset colleagues. Unfortunately, options for dealing with them are awkward. It isn't simply that no one wants to hurt a colleague's feelings. It's also the knowledge that you will see the offender -- and he or she will see you -- forever, and neither of you will be able to forget the torturous conversation. As a result, many people just frown and bear the discomfort, forced into one of the office's countless endurance tests.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: andscorpions; badbreath; hygiene; ibetlarryisgay; needstodouche; powerfulodorofcheese; pufflist; workplace
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Ooohhh...this could be a fun thread. Freepers...please share horror stories about stinky coworkers
1 posted on 07/21/2004 9:16:53 AM PDT by BluegrassScholar
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To: Gabz; SheLion

Here we go!!!!!!


2 posted on 07/21/2004 9:20:23 AM PDT by Mears
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To: BluegrassScholar

Once, a new co-worker was eating a burger for lunch, and a piece of onion fell into his shirt pocket, undetected. It stayed in his pocket all day, and--warmed by his body heat--began to smell just like B.O. This guy was VERY nice and VERY put together and well-groomed, and the secretaries in the office were torturing themselves about whether they should mention it or not, when he came out of his office red-faced with the piece of onion in his hand to confess to all that he was wondering to himself why he stunk so bad.
Otherwise, I haven't really had a problem with smelly co-workers--but try going to the public library.......


3 posted on 07/21/2004 9:21:55 AM PDT by hispanarepublicana (Free Brigitte Bardot.)
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To: BluegrassScholar

I once cared for a man with asbestosis who couldn't tolerate any perfume smell on any of his nurses...you couldn't wear scented deoderant or lotion. Really made me aware as a novice nurse...I remained careful of this throughout my entire career.

In the office-type cube-city workplaces, I would think common courtesy would prevail, but alas...


4 posted on 07/21/2004 9:23:00 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (Expect me when you see me!)
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To: BluegrassScholar

something here doesnt' pass the smell test...


5 posted on 07/21/2004 9:23:00 AM PDT by camle (keep your mind open and somebody will fill it with something for you))
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To: BluegrassScholar

Try working with these guys.


6 posted on 07/21/2004 9:23:49 AM PDT by Fintan (Put...the candle....BACK!!!!)
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To: BluegrassScholar

I'd MUCH rather have perfumed or smoking colleagues than unwashed/sweaty/farting co-workers.

My first roommate weighed in at 300+ pounds. Who cares, right? I didn't... until I found out that at that weight, she made the room smell like one giant walking armpit. Sure she showered regularly but she really needed to shower 4 times a day to keep up with the stink. Very pleasant--NOT!


7 posted on 07/21/2004 9:23:53 AM PDT by Nataku X (You hear all the time, "Be more like Jesus." But have you ever heard, "Be more like Muhammed"?)
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To: Mears; *puff_list; Just another Joe; Great Dane; Madame Dufarge; Gabz; MeeknMing; steve50; ...
Here we go!!!!!!

Boy! What a bunch of "girley men." geeeeeesh

What the 'ell are being raised today? People are just too damn sensitive when out and about with other people that DO live on this earth as well!!!

8 posted on 07/21/2004 9:24:09 AM PDT by SheLion (Please register to vote! We can't afford to remain silent!!)
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To: BluegrassScholar
Perfume isn't the only second-hand smell that harms indoor air quality.

What kills me is nail polish remover, for some reason. That stuff is pure poison. Once some woman sitting near me on a plane decided to "do" her nails and I thought I was a goner -- my lungs felt like they were on fire.

9 posted on 07/21/2004 9:26:56 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: BluegrassScholar

Ping for later read!


10 posted on 07/21/2004 9:27:40 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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To: BluegrassScholar

I worked with a smelly guy, Big, fat, sweaty, massive B.O... We tried verything subtle to get the point across, such as leaving anti-perspirant/deodorant in his cubicle when he was gone etc... Nothing worked, and he never got the hint. I always dreaded having him in my cubicle when we were working on stuff together... Finaly, I couldn't stand it any longer.

I just took to walking into his cubicle to say "Hi! How's it going?" whenever I needed to break wind...


11 posted on 07/21/2004 9:29:43 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (Q: What goes peck, peck, peck, boom? A: A chicken in a mine field.)
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To: BluegrassScholar

I have a co-worker from India who eats a great deal of cumin. As well as curry, of course. I don't think he's discovered anti-perspirant, or else he is too cheap to purchase it. So anywhere he is begins to take on this curry stink, and when he gets excited he starts to exude it from his pores. It's really quite nauseating. His wife works with us too and she slathers on the Impulse Body Spray like it's going out of style. I'm surprised he lets her use so much because I doubt he would want to be asked to let her purchase it more than once a year or so. That $3.99 will break the bank dont'cha know. Once he said she's always wanting new clothes. For Pete's sake he had just let her buy a new dress not 18 months before.


12 posted on 07/21/2004 9:30:09 AM PDT by johnb838 (France is the enemy - France has always been the enemy)
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To: BluegrassScholar
Although the wonderful smells that can be made to issue forth from the body and its various cavities are a problem by themselves they can also be useful for solving other problems.

A little constructive dieting can give you a very powerful self-defense shield with which to drive away annoying yuppies babbling into their cell phones next to your desk and almost any other type of human annoyance.

13 posted on 07/21/2004 9:30:13 AM PDT by EUPHORIC (Right? Left? Read Ecclesiastes 10:2 for a definition. The Bible knows all about it!)
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To: SheLion
What the 'ell are being raised today? People are just too damn sensitive when out and about with other people that DO live on this earth as well!!!

I vote with you, except in the cases of co-workers that deliberately wait to pass gas until the elevator doors shut.

I worked with a guy like that, he was a nice guy in every other way once you learned to not get on the elevator with him. He used to come into the office chuckling, "Boy, they really climbed the elevator walls this time!"

14 posted on 07/21/2004 9:30:19 AM PDT by xJones
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To: BluegrassScholar

When I was preganant, smells really got to me. During the first one, there was a guy in the shop who took "Elvis showers" He had walked into my space, and when the colone hit me I thought I was going to die. When he saw me pale, he got closer, all concerned, Are you OK?.... ack!!
I ran passed him into the bathroom, and did just what I thought I was going to do :)
Everyone in the shop was so mad at him for making me sick, and he was so sorry. He never did it again, and several people there learned a valuble lesson in the "over-cologne" department.


15 posted on 07/21/2004 9:30:40 AM PDT by backinthefold (I am stuck on Band-aid, cause Band-aid stuck on me!! (as sung by JF'n K))
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To: Mears

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy..............


16 posted on 07/21/2004 9:31:25 AM PDT by Gabz (Ted Kennedy's driving has killed more people than second hand smoke)
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To: BluegrassScholar

Sorry, but after spending half of my working life underground and the next half negotiating (on behalf of the company) working conditions among other things, this seems absurd and part of another reality to me.


17 posted on 07/21/2004 9:31:27 AM PDT by JimSEA ( "More Bush, Less Taxes.")
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To: BluegrassScholar

Try being a manager who has to talk with an employee about their perfume/body-odor!


18 posted on 07/21/2004 9:31:38 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: xJones

Did we work together? That sounds like me ;0)


19 posted on 07/21/2004 9:33:17 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (Q: What goes peck, peck, peck, boom? A: A chicken in a mine field.)
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To: BluegrassScholar

I worked in a warehouse once pushing a dolly and pulling boxes from the maze of asiles. There were a dozen of us doing this when a new guy was hired. He was a country pumpkin who smelled like he hadn't had a bath in months.

We could tell from his lingering odor what asiles he had been on 5 minutes after he had left them.

We complained to the management enmass and the supervisor called him and and told him to take a bath before coming into work the next day. He never showed up.


20 posted on 07/21/2004 9:34:17 AM PDT by Rebelbase ( A majority of Europeans have lost the courage of their fathers and grandfathers.)
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To: Sunshine Sister

Many years ago, I was quite young, and ignorant. I went to work with perfume on. The cook at the restaurant who was the store manager starts screaming, "What is that stench?" I was uninformed about his allergy, and found out the hard way.

I was very hurt, and embarassed. It has kind or cured me from wearing much of any scent. From that point on, I would just shower with soaps or gels of little scent, and threw out all my perfumes.

It has been a long time, and I have never forgotten this. I am very careful not to offend, but you can't please everyone, so I have learned in my years of experience.


21 posted on 07/21/2004 9:34:33 AM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: BluegrassScholar
**retch alert**

True story:

I once had a temporary employee working at a client of ours. The client called me and told me that they didn't want her back due to her "offensive odor". They didn't offer much more by way of details, so I gathered what I could, and prepared to counsel the employee.

She came into my office the next day to be counseled on the loss of her job. I approached the subject in a round-about way, tip-toeing around the issue. I couldn't just come out and say, "They think you stink! Take a bath!".

But, I asked her, "You know...sometimes someone's 'personal scent' can put other people off. Were you wearing a heavy perfume or something that day that might have affected someone?"

She thinks about it for a minute, leans in, then says, "Oooh, you know what it might have been Joe...I think I forgot to change my pad that day.."

**end retch alert**

22 posted on 07/21/2004 9:35:05 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("They got a pepper baaarrrrrr!")
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To: xJones
I vote with you, except in the cases of co-workers that deliberately wait to pass gas until the elevator doors shut.

Well, these people must be raised in a barn.  What ever happened to common sense and courtesy?

Like the one poster above:  a woman decided to do her nails on a PLANE?  How asinine is that!

23 posted on 07/21/2004 9:35:13 AM PDT by SheLion (Please register to vote! We can't afford to remain silent!!)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

It wasn't you unless you have a Ph.D in geophysics from the University of California at Riverside. But thanks for the warning in case we ever meet in a building with elevators.:)


24 posted on 07/21/2004 9:36:38 AM PDT by xJones
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To: BluegrassScholar

I used to work for my cities electric company. Part of the office consisted of a drive-thru area set up just like a bank would have. The room was maybe 5'7' and only had room for two small desks, a chair and small bookcase. One of our cashiers must have had a phobia of soap,water and toothpaste. One of our other cashiers was forced to sit in this small, locked room with him for hours at a time.

I'm in S. Florida so this gives you an idea of how hot we get and how much sweat is possible.

There were times I'd go into the drive-thru and literally gag at the smell. Finally, I'd had enough, and the other cashier was about to leave if something wasn't done about her co-workers order. I went to the director and supervisor about the problem and neither would do a thing about it, let alone just ask this particular employee to PLEASE shower and brush his teeth.

Not long after that, I left working there (amid other severe problems that went on). The other cashier stayed after finding out her co-worker was being transfered to another department.


25 posted on 07/21/2004 9:37:00 AM PDT by Brytani (Politics: n. from Greek; "poli"-many; "tics"-ugly, bloodsucking parasites.)
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To: SheLion

You beat me to it; we're turning into a nation of chronic complainers who nonetheless can't bring ourselves to confront our problems, so we want "a law"!!

"Girly-men" indeed...


26 posted on 07/21/2004 9:38:35 AM PDT by Redbob
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ewwww, gross!


27 posted on 07/21/2004 9:41:32 AM PDT by rabidralph (My pit bull drives an SUV.)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

That is nasty


28 posted on 07/21/2004 9:43:27 AM PDT by dc27
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To: television is just wrong
The kind of person you describe here will never be satisfied with anything. They go through life yelling and screaming about any thing and every thing.

How were you supposed to know he had an allergy. I'll bet money he didn't. You were his scape goat for the day.

There is nothing wrong with perfume as long as you don't bathe in it. It certainly is better than having BO.

29 posted on 07/21/2004 9:44:09 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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To: BluegrassScholar

There was a girl on our hall my freshman year of college who had a serious foot odor problem. Her roommate tried to endure it, but finally had to have a serious talk with her. Fortunately, the "stinker" took it graciously and took all possible steps to ameliorate the problem.


30 posted on 07/21/2004 9:46:01 AM PDT by mountaineer
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To: Redbob
"Girly-men" indeed...

I knew I misspelled it the second I hit "enter." Oh well. You know what I mean. :)

31 posted on 07/21/2004 9:47:17 AM PDT by SheLion (Please register to vote! We can't afford to remain silent!!)
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To: rabidralph

That phrase then became a running joke in our office.

"Mike's out sick today."
"Why? Did he forget to change his pad?"

*insert riotous laughter here*

I left there about 2 years ago, but I still keep in touch with one of my former co-workers. He says the phrase is still used to this day!


32 posted on 07/21/2004 9:47:47 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("They got a pepper baaarrrrrr!")
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To: BluegrassScholar
Back when I was married, a few years ago, my husband worked as an executive for the US branch of a major Dutch multinational. My job as wife was to be den mother and Director of Esprit de Corps to the young Dutch scientists under his command.

Now, these boys come from a culture that does not value daily showers or deodorant, and to make it worse they would go out on their lunch hour and play soccer very hard for an hour before coming back to their desks. And they would eat a lot of curry. The effect was bad enough to knock you down. Then they would wonder why the American girls didn't like them, even though they were tall, blond, gorgeous, and had six-figure incomes. They were all nice as pie, too. But they were lonely and becoming increasingly depressed by their near-continual rejection.

I had to explain to them, lovingly, that no American woman would look at them unless they started showering EVERY day and using deodorant. They thought this was very effeminate. Clearly clean American men were not as manly as they were, since everyone knows stink is masculine!

Wouldn't you know it, one of them--the geekiest of them--found a gorgeous, angelic American girl who thought his stink was nice. (They got married after a few months together and have been happily married for fifteen years.) Their relationship immediately persuaded all the other Dutchmen that it wasn't really, really necessary to go through all that nonsense about showering in order to get a pretty American girl, so they went back to stinking.

I'll tell you, being in an elevator with a bunch of smoking, reeking Dutchmen is enough to make you pass out. I love the Dutch, and the women are dainty and smell just fine, but some of the men just do not get it.

33 posted on 07/21/2004 9:48:28 AM PDT by Capriole (DO NOT WRITE IN THIS SPACE. FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY.)
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To: BluegrassScholar

Perfume allergies are more common than we realize, I think. In our church choir, the director always reminds us not to wear perfume because being close together and singing really affects one of the members - and it isn't me because I never said anything.

I have always had a bad reaction to perfume. Usually I get a horrid headache within minutes if it is pretty strong, or close by. Sometimes I get nauseated. If it is added to soaps, shampoo, detergents, I will break out in a rash. So do a few of our kids. My mother always used to get mad at me when I was young because of it. But it isn't exactly something I could help.

Age has tamed it down somewhat, but I am still fairly sensitive to it and other chemical smells too.


34 posted on 07/21/2004 9:50:04 AM PDT by lupie
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To: BluegrassScholar; Mears; SheLion

My only bad experience with a co-worker was at my first job in radio. He was nice enough, but was about 5'3" and weighed well over 300lbs. There was not one DJ at either the AM or FM station that wanted to man the booth after this guy finished his shift.cans of Lysol and deodorant left in the studios were met by him with oblivion - he had no clue. And no one had the cojones to say anything to his face about it.

He got a clue shortly after he started helping out in the news department when we were a person short. One day he complained to the other newsperson about the ashtray in there and actually brought in a portable smoke eater. I had no problem with the thing because it actually removed much of the stench of his BO from the room, but was a bit torqued about the fact he only complained about smoking in the news room and not any of the other studios.

One day he made a serious mistake - he demanded I stop smoking in the newsroom. I let him have it with both barrels about what everyone else in the entire place was putting up with him and his poor hygiene. He truly had no clue why there was always Lysol, Air Freshener and deodorant cans in all the studios. I became a hero at the station because his hygiene improved immensely following that altercation.........and I continued to smoke in the news room!!!

What was really and truly sad, was that his wife and 7 kids all had equally poor hygiene. At the time he was studying to become a minister and left the radio station about 6 months later.....I always prayed that his congregation would not have to suffer what we did at the radio station.


35 posted on 07/21/2004 9:56:30 AM PDT by Gabz (Ted Kennedy's driving has killed more people than second hand smoke)
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To: xJones

I vote with you, except in the cases of co-workers that deliberately wait to pass gas until the elevator doors shut.


Ha! It seems that I often get on an empty elevator just after the "phantom farter" has departed. I'm on the top floor, so as the elevator goes down and someone else gets on and wrinkles their nose, I want to shout, "but I didn't do it! I didn't do it!"


36 posted on 07/21/2004 10:02:04 AM PDT by duckbutt ( I Haven't Lost My Mind, It's Backed Up On Disk Somewhere)
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To: lupie

We have a friend whose wife told me he cannot tolerate perfume and even make-up with fragrances, so out of courtesy I avoid perfume when we get together with them. I think being in closer proximity to people/industrial things has made many more people MORE sensitive now.....where in the past we had the wide open spaces.....and less perfumed fragrances also.


37 posted on 07/21/2004 10:06:04 AM PDT by goodnesswins (This tag only to be removed by purchaser.)
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To: Capriole; BluegrassScholar; xsmommy; EODGUY; neverdem
Years ago, the Iranian Navy sent several dozen "scholars" to Texas A&M Corps of Cadet to get their degree and commission (This was in 75-78 time frame, just prior the takeover. These were probably all shot, got killed in the Iraqi war (or all are now terrorists) if they remained in Iran.)

uniformly - Every one of these guys just physically stunk.

They were also undisciplined, fakers, liars, sleezy, dirty, immoral, and cowards. Had an incredible insolent, insulting attitude also.

Supposedly, these were the sons of the "elite" of the Iranian military and society too!
38 posted on 07/21/2004 10:16:51 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly ... But Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS press corpse lies every day.)
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To: Sunshine Sister
How were you supposed to know he had an allergy. I'll bet money he didn't. You were his scape goat for the day. There is nothing wrong with perfume as long as you don't bathe in it. It certainly is better than having BO.

I must disagree. I developed a terrible allergy/migraine trigger to scent.

I used to wear perfume when I was younger, and I do miss it a lot. I have to use scent-free dryer sheets, laundry soap, etc. Otherwise ,I get terribly congested and am left with a headache to die for, which can go on for more than a day.

Mind you, I can handle gasoline smells, car exhaust, and cigarette smoke with no problems.

It ia terribly difficult to bring up people, but I manage to do so. I've never had anyone get upset with me.

And I too have learned the art of not breathing when stuck in an elevator.

BTW - the amount someone is wearing isn't indicative of anything. At one client, I was getting bad headaches every time I talked with this one woman who never wore perfume. I mentioned it to her one day, she pulled out some scented handlotion I could barely smell, and my headache kicked in. The next few days, she didn't put any on, and there was no headache. So, it's the molecules in the air that enter your bloodstream, not necessarily what you can smell. I have to say that as I get older, I am starting to be able to tolerate some scents, but it is slow going.

39 posted on 07/21/2004 10:17:25 AM PDT by technochick99 (Sanctimonious prig, proudly posting and criticizing (except the FRN) since 1999.)
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To: BluegrassScholar
Unfortunately, options for dealing with them are awkward

I'm still searching for a link, but I'm pretty sure someone set up an electronic B.O. notification site. You just provide the recipient's email address and they get a nice message that says, to the effect, "a good friend of yours wanted to pass along the information that you are emitting some pretty bad body odor; you may want to take steps to eliminate it."

It's a great idea. You could also print this thread out and leave it on the offender's desk, if necessary.

40 posted on 07/21/2004 10:19:58 AM PDT by Mr. Bird (Ain't the beer cold!)
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To: johnb838
I had a japanese boss who liked natto for breakfast.

One on ones with him were bad enough by themselves, but fermented bean breath is lethal at 10 feet.

41 posted on 07/21/2004 10:26:18 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: goodnesswins
When I was a teenager and working in a grocery store, we had a man working with us that had horrible BO. He worked in frozen foods, but he was constantly sweating. The manager of the store spoke with him about his hygiene and told him to bathe and use deodorant because the customers were upset.

His smell got worse. He was approached again and he told the manager that what he was smelling was moth balls in his pockets to help with the odor.

NO LIE.....we all nearly died when he came in the break room.
42 posted on 07/21/2004 10:31:12 AM PDT by mrsppmrxky
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To: BluegrassScholar

I have really bad asthma, had it all my life. Certain perfumes can cause my broncial tree to go haywire and close off tight.

Not fun to end up in the emergency room because of the old lady two people behind you at the grocery store checkout.
:-(


43 posted on 07/21/2004 10:38:58 AM PDT by KosmicKitty (Well... There you go again!)
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To: KosmicKitty

One more "stinky" story. When my mom got colon cancer, her breath became so bad, it was hard to be in the room with her. Also, you couldn't go near the bathroom for hours after she'd used it. When the cancer was discovered, all of the odor problem made sense.

Years later, I was working in the same office w/ a man with same bad breath & heaven help you if you were anywhere in the building when he passed gas. All I could do was remember my mother & I really wanted to ask him if he'd had a colon scan, but he really was a sweet person and I just didn't know how to approach him. Well, after he retired, another co-worker told me that he had to have his colon removed because of cancer.

Yes, I do feel guilty for no saying anything!!


44 posted on 07/21/2004 10:51:12 AM PDT by KosmicKitty (Well... There you go again!)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

That story is really, really gross, but your tag line is really, really funny.


45 posted on 07/21/2004 10:51:12 AM PDT by Rollee
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To: BluegrassScholar

I have a client, a nice old lady who is getting gaga, who doesn't have a phone, so I have to go to her house to work on her case. She has a dog that she lets pee everywhere, and two cats whose litter box she never cleans, and there are dirty dishes and dirty clothes everywhere. Sad thing is, her daughter, who is mentally competent, lives with her but won't lift a finger to do housework, so bringing in the county wouldn't work.

Whenever I visit her and then leave, it feels like my skin is saturated with the aroma down to the pores, and my hair smells like it, too.


46 posted on 07/21/2004 10:57:42 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: BluegrassScholar

Just remembered one I had suppressed -- I once had a boss with rotten teeth. Many, many rotten teeth. Black, with gigantic holes. Talk about horrible breath!

I was new and being trained, and spent a lot of "face time" with him.I had to quit after two weeks, I couldn't take it.


47 posted on 07/21/2004 11:05:05 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: BluegrassScholar

Larry Isaacson sounds mentally ill to me.


48 posted on 07/21/2004 11:11:35 AM PDT by WL-law
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To: BluegrassScholar
I have been in the fire service for 29 years and over that time I have learned to deal with "odors" from patients and victims. Use a cheap surgical mask and run a bead of "Vicks Mentholatum" across thew inside of the mask. This will even kill the smell of a body decomposing for weeks in a warm environment!

Good Luck

49 posted on 07/21/2004 11:14:23 AM PDT by Species8472 (Democrats hate America)
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To: technochick99
There is one basic difference. You try nicely to let people know you have this sensitivity. The person I was referring started yelling immediately. It hurt and embarrassed the poster. I have no use for impolite people. That was my point.

I am blessed to have only 1 allergy that I know of and I don't have to use the product. I really feel for the suffers of nasty allergies and if I know of it, I will do my best to help avoid the cause.

50 posted on 07/21/2004 11:24:05 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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