There were 4 main glacial epochs where the continental glacier covered much of North America - the Nebraskan, Kansan, Illinoisan and Wisconsin. Guess they (we) are still in the ice age. Damn!
Lando 
Posted on 06/29/2004 8:05:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
Four States Holding to 'No Issue' Handgun Laws
6/28/2004
Feature Story
by Dick Dahl
With the recent passage of a "shall issue" handgun law in Ohio, the number of states that have eased restrictions on concealed gun carrying has risen to 35. But in the face of this onslaught, four heartland states are holding fast to their long-time laws that prohibit the carrying of concealed guns by people other than police officers.
Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, and Wisconsin thus far have withstood the gun lobby's efforts to enact shall-issue laws. (They're commonly called "shall issue" laws because they say that the state shall issue concealed-carry permits to qualified applicants-typically those without histories of serious crime or mental illness-who apply for them regardless of whether there is a demonstrated need for protection.) They stand apart not only from the shall-issue states but from the 11 "may issue" states that allow residents to carry concealed handguns if they can demonstrate a need for protection.
Proponents of shall-issue laws contend that they reduce crime, but they usually don't mention the fact that crime has generally been dropping since the early 1990s everywhere in the U.S., including the states that have not passed these laws. Crime data in the four no-issue states show that they are no exception. And meanwhile, Stanford University Law School economist John J. Donohue has conducted an exhaustive study of the effects of all shall-issue states and found that these laws don't reduce crime and may actually increase it.
Nevertheless, the gun lobby has proven highly effective in pushing for passage of liberalized concealed-carry laws, and they have tried hard to achieve success in the four no-issue states. The fact that these states are largely rural with great numbers of hunters makes their success at fending off shall-issue laws all the more noteworthy.
In Illinois, the reason why lawmakers haven't succumbed to the gun lobby on the concealed-carry issue is that it is simply unpalatable politically, according to Thom Mannard, executive director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence. And he says that public opposition to concealed handguns extends far beyond metropolitan Chicago. "There is just a sense among legislators that concealed carry is not a winnable issue in elections," he says. "People just don't believe that concealed carry leads to greater safety."
Numerous Illinois polls in recent years have shown that citizens oppose concealed carrying of handguns. The most recent poll, conducted in January of this year by a Republican polling firm, Overbrook Research, found that 68 percent of Illinoisans statewide oppose concealed carry. In part, Mannard believes that his organization has a hand in the effort to keep shall-issue laws out of Illinois. "I think we've been successful in educating people about the risks of concealed carry outweighing any perceived benefits," he says.
In Wisconsin, the fight has grown ever tougher, as proponents of concealed carry narrowly lost in their most recent effort to pass a shall-issue law. Governor Jim Doyle vetoed a shall-issue bill that was passed by the state legislature, and after the senate overrode the veto, the assembly failed to do so by one vote in February.
Jeri Bonavia, executive director of the Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort, says that her organization worked closely with a variety of others, many of them law-enforcement groups, to oppose the shall-issue bill. The groups did a good job of staying "on message," she says, that "this is not a piece of legislation that is going to decrease crime, as promised, and it's certainly not a piece of legislation that's going to increase personal safety."
Additionally, the opposition from law-enforcement organizations was a critical part of the success in fending off a shall-issue law, but another facet of the effort was to raise the question of what was really motivating the bill's backers, Bonavia says. "We looked at all of the things that had been written in [gun] industry magazines about how concealed carry is the brightest star on the horizon or the little money-making machine," she says. "And that really angered people at a level that the traditional debate didn't. People were ticked off that the industry was coming in here with the intention of making money and selling them these lies about personal safety."
Like Illinois, polls in Wisconsin have shown strong public opposition to shall-issue laws. According to Bonavia, Democrats in Wisconsin are coming to the realization that those poll findings indicate something that is a very strong issue for them. Coupled with their own polls and focus groups, she says, Wisconsin Democrats "are now using concealed carry as their best issue for campaigning and fund raising." Even rural Democrats are now embracing anti-concealed carry as a top campaign issue, she says.
In Kansas, the effort to fend off shall-issue laws has largely focused on making sure that the legislature falls short of necessary override numbers, according to Elizabeth Kinch of Safe State Kansas. In part, she says, the state has been fortunate to have elected moderate governors who aren't eager to sign a bill to allow widespread carrying of concealed guns. After a shall-issue bill passed the legislature in the last session, Governor Kathleen Sebelius vetoed it, stating, "I do not believe the widespread legalization of concealed firearms ... would make Kansans safer. I do not believe allowing people to carry concealed handguns into sporting events, shopping malls, grocery stores, or the workplace would be good public policy. And, to me, the likelihood of exposing children to loaded handguns in their parents' purses, pockets, and automobiles is simply unacceptable." In April, an attempt to override Sebelius' veto of a shall-issue bill fell seven votes short.
Kinch says that keeping concealed carry out of Kansas has been "a real challenge." But she says that most people in Kansas agree with her organization that concealed carry is a bad idea. In recent years, she says, two Kansas State University polls have shown "overwhelming opposition" to shall-issue laws.
Activists in these states say that the task of keeping shall-issue laws from passage is a difficult one, but as Bonavia stated during the recent legislative fight in Wisconsin, "Proponents of (concealed carry) laws claim that concealed weapons will provide individuals with an unparalleled means of self-defense while offering society an effective method of decreasing crime. Experts, scientific evidence, experience, and common sense contradict these claims."
BOOM -
Hmmmm I can find plenty of experts scientific evidence and common sense reasons to support these claims.
If guns are not an effective way to protect against criminals maybe its time we disarm these law enforcement officers who are working to prevent citizens from having the same rights they have.
I'm in Wisconsin and I just pretend that the Constitution still means what it says....so far, so good.
Let's also not forget that the "antis" have blocked the implementation of the CCW permits in the major metropolitan areas of Missouri.
Mark
I'm in Illinois and take the same approach as you.
Hooray for MIZZOURAH which passed "shall issue" this year (via veto override)!
Coming soon to a state near you (hopefully)!
The fact that Wisconsin seems concerned about the same thing should not be surprising. They've developed a thin patina of "Liberal" outlook only in recent years. Otherwise, they are fully Progressive (that is Commie), and would prefer the Negro people to move back down South (or be lynched).
"Experts" are notorious for saying whatever their personal ideology requires them to say and "scientific evidence" can also be used to prove that grass is red and bees can't fly. That leaves experience and common sense, and common sense indicates that criminals prefer helpless victims, while our experience after one year of "shall issue" shows that crimes are stopped by armed citizens, at least once in a while.
The "experts" may say that these incidents are statistically insignificant and scientifically unimportant, but I can tell you that they were not unimportant to the people who were not victims, thanks to their concealed handguns.
Well, that's embarassing. The University of Kansas law school has taken the article off their web site. I'll have to see if I can find it elsewhere.
'nuff said....
There were 4 main glacial epochs where the continental glacier covered much of North America - the Nebraskan, Kansan, Illinoisan and Wisconsin. Guess they (we) are still in the ice age. Damn!
Lando
Wisconsin lacks CCW solely because of Gov. Jim "craps" Doyle (D-Potawatomi Casino). Without his veto and subsequent betrayal, under pressure from Craps, by one of the Rat sponsors of the bill, we would have shall issue CCW.
Good Luck. I hope you don't end up as the test case.
Actually, you may be a good test case, since Hamdan won his case and the Pizza guy apparently lost because he was busted with drugs.
I kind of doubt that. Anyway, it should be interesting to see how many of the anti-CCW folks lose their elections this fall.
Hopefully, Wisconsin will have enough votes to override the RAT governor next year.
I predict that Illinois will be the last state to pass a law permitting private citizens to carry. (If it ever does).
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