Family of police shooting victim wants answers (Their title)

WPMI NBC15 Local News ^ | 3/11/2004 | Richard Allyn

[17th Miss Regt]

Lets add the fact the man is intoxicated or at least mentally confused.

If he is high on PCP or something like that, eight rounds may be just enough to stop him. Or maybe not. He was not kind enough to submit to toxicological tests beforehand so the officers had to make a snap judgement. On a slightly different note, if he was sloshed, he should not have been near a vehicle. He would be a danger to all others on the road.

[GrandEagle]

Your premise is flawed.
It doesn't appear that way based on the flight that went down in Pennsylvania.

No one imagined what they were going to do until they did it. To most, it just seemed like a routine hijacking. Give them money and an escape to Cuba and they would all be released. There were several hijackers who knew what they were going to do and acted according to a well thought out plan.
Agreed. I believe this is consistent with my statement.

People in large numbers tend to act like sheep and do nothing.
Again, I would disagree based on the flight that went down in Pennsylvania when several people tried to take back control. They didn't figure out what was going on until after our enemies had control of the aircraft. I'll guarantee you it they would never get control of it that way again or even then if the passengers had known what was going on. As evidenced by - and I'm going by memory here - I think it was the "shoe bomber" the the passengers subdued.

[sergeantdave]

As a former MP I can assure you that we would have the guy with carpet cutter down and handcuffed in about one minute. We had to wade into situations where fists, feet, knives, bar stools and beer bottles were flying. We worked as a team and jumped in and settled the matter without pulling our 45s and blasting away.

To assess a situation and use deadly force as the first option when presented with a threat is an indication of poor training. The guy with the knife should be sitting in a cell right now - maybe with a few body parts not feeling too well - not laying on a slab in the morgue. What these cops did is inexcusable.

[newgeezer]

That is pretty much what happened.

But, "A man is dead after Mobile police open fire in a crowded shopping center parking lot" sounds like the victim was an innocent bystander. It also sounds like a typical one-liner 'teaser' the news babe floats during the so-called "news break" to get viewers to tune in at 11.

Apparently, these news hounds figured it wouldn't be enough to say one or more cops shot a midget wielding a carpet knife; they decided to sensationalize it with even more "those dirty, rotten cops" rhetoric.

[Rifleman]

The proper response is usually to disarm the squirrel using your baton. Ever since I watched an undersized veteran cop disarm a huge drunk bowie knife waving bubba with two strokes of his stick, I have been dubious of the incidents where multiple cops gun down a obstreperous perp who waves an improvised weapon at 'em. These events illustrate the difference between the poseur and the professional.

These cops need to find a job more in line with their talents. "You want fries with that?"

[Captain Rhino]

I agree with you. This is part of the "zero tolerance" mentality that pervades county governments at all levels: set a parameter and when the parameter is exceeded, apply the same (maximum) punishment no matter the specific circumstances. Then hold an investigation to show that you uniformly applied the punishment prescribed for the parameter that was exceeded. Very circular, very little thinking required to implement and execute.

Welcome to the one size fits all world of government policy.

The drunk upset man was stupid to pull a utility knife on the officers. Drunk upset men do things like that, routinely. These supposedly trained police officers have a "zero tolerance" mentality when it comes to using deadly force. They outnumbered him, were probably both bigger than him, he was drunk, they had guns and he had a utility knife, and the only solution they can come up with is to shot him eight times. Maybe "fear for their lives" made them shoot that many times. But I feel they felt empowered to kill him because he had fulfilled the deadly force parameter.

There are plenty of policemen that would have just shot him once in the leg to put him down then pinned his hand and stripped him of the utility knife before cuffing him and taking him to the emergency room (en route to jail).

This was clearly excessive. I hope they lose their jobs and face criminal charges.

[Monterrosa-24]

Well Mr. Armchair, Maybe you view it as a small drunk man but I bet the police were confronted by a quick moving wirey guy. The police had also probably seen the results of knife fighting and knew a man with a knife can shred the man with a gun who hesitates or is too close. Who is responsible for the man's death? I would say it is clear that the idiot who threatened the police with a knife is responsible for his own wounds. As for the eight rounds from two pistols--that sounds like about a second and a half of shooting. Not much time for intellectual considerations but enough time to do the job of putting the armed man down.

[Kakaze]

" If he is high on PCP or something like that, eight rounds may be just enough to stop him. Or maybe not. He was not kind enough to submit to toxicological tests beforehand so the officers had to make a snap judgement "

A well trained officer can or should be able to tell the difference between a man on PCP or drunk. The man lunging on PCP will come at him like a bull in a china shop, the drunk standing up with a carpet cutter more than likely fell or staggered there is a difference.

" if he was sloshed, he should not have been near a vehicle "

Can't argue he should not be driving, but he was stopped.......he shouldn't be dead.

[dljordan]

You're right about this. Boxcutters are NASTY! They'll cut right through clothes and everything else. They'll cut deep enough to open you carotid artery and you'll bleed to death in a couple of minutes.

[coloradan]

When they attempted to calm him down,

You! Changing your tire! Yes You!! CALM DOWN! NOW!!

[Sloth]

Sounds like a situation for a tazer.

[Kakaze]

" Maybe "fear for their lives" made them shoot that many times. "

It'll be really interesting to see how experienced the officers were.

Poor training, because of a lack of funding or attrition seems to be pervasive now. I'd hate to think they would have to live with this do to inexperience or improper training.

[17th Miss Regt]

I agree with what you have said regarding the Pennsy flight. For the other flights, what was going to happen was not yet known, so no action was taken. The Pennsy flight folks became aware via cell phones of what had happened at the WTC and then knew they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by regaining control. Also, they had a couple of people capable of quickly formulating a plan and carrying it out. Those two factors, foreknowledge and leadership, allowed the attempt to take place. As for the WTC flights, awareness of what would happen to the plane occurred only seconds before impact, too late to do anything. The people in the plane did not see the need to disarm the hijackers as they were not aware of the peril they were in.

As for your comment about an attempted hijacking being much less likely to succeed today because passengers would take action, I agree. We no longer have lack of awareness about what these scum will do.

[Cap'n Crunch]

We recently got tazers. Really good when they work. About a month ago some nut showed up on a guys porch with a large ax. Said he was going to kill the guy because he made fun of God. Our guys got there and sarge tazed him. Didn't completely work and the guy held onto the ax.

About a week ago some guy dragged one of our guys in a car for awhile and then there was a car chase. When they finally surrounded him they had to taze him. Didn't work. Barbs stuck in his coat and he was still able to fight.

I've seen what a box cutter can do to people. You wanna chance a tazer that doesn't work all the time? Or take a few zips across the face and throat by a razor?

Come at me with a razor and I'm emptying my full mag of .45, I don't care if he weighs 50 lbs.

[GrandEagle]

quick moving wirey guy
Not what the eye witnesses said.

Who is responsible for the man's death? I would say it is clear that the idiot who threatened the police with a knife
No dispute that he was an idiot. The officers definitely over responded also. These two are not mutually exclusive events like the news media, as well as (it appears) you will treat them.
I will agree with the of of the other posters that maybe the training that we afford our officers is inadequate.
I am certainly not one of those who believe that our officers have to put up with anything and that their weapon is simply for show.
However, as a society we define some rules. I am unwilling to say to those in authority that if anyone challenges you - even it they are wrong - you are justified in killing them as a first response. I will agree that under your set of rules we would probably have less crime, but I believe that we would have to give up way too much.

Well Mr. Armchair
Could indicate that you understand the weakness of your position.

[Cap'n Crunch]

I think it was Street Survival that used to show an autopsy of a cop stabbed to death with a table fork. I saw the pictures.

[17th Miss Regt]

A well trained officer can or should be able to tell the difference between a man on PCP or drunk.Not so. There is a considerable amount of overlap in the visible signs of intoxication due to alcohol and PCP. Not all people behave the same way while intoxicated by either substance (or any other one, for that matter). Sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference. And a drunk coming at me with a knife is rightly regarded as a deadly threat just as much as a stoned person with a knife.

[Blood of Tyrants]

If the people had known they were going to be flown into a building and two or three of the passengers/crew had had guns, they would have simply shot and killed them. Would you argue that 10 unarmed men against 5 men armed with boxcutters SHOULDN'T use guns to protect their lives?

And then we would be back to where we are now.

[Blood of Tyrants]

HK model 93's? Anyway, any rational person does NOT pick up a boxcutter and make any type of threatening move at all towards an armed police officer.

[spunkets]

" These events illustrate the difference between the poseur and the professional. These cops need to find a job more in line with their talents. "You want fries with that?""

Ditto. Unfortunately pros don't often want the job, because of the PC BS in place. A pro might have inflicted lumps, then he'd be charged with violating rights.