Posted on 01/19/2004 11:30:03 PM PST by Sky99
Could Helicopters have landed on the roofs of the WTC?
(Dan) The helicopter pilots said, they would have tried a rescue if people got to the roof of the North Tower. They said the South Tower was impossible to go on. The entire roof was covered with smoke. But on the North tower, 30 percent of the roof didn't have much smoke.
(Michael) Well, 30 percent may seem like a little but if you've seen the video as often as you probably have, you'll see that the very top floors were really largely engulfed, even if it may not have seemed so from dead above.
(Dan) Now Steve Jacobson was a top engineer for the World Trade Center. He was in the North Tower on Sep 11th. Did he have the keys to the roof?
Michael) Oh definitely. His work space had a door right onto the roof covered with all sorts of warning signs about the RF radiation. The photos you saw of mine were taken by walking outside his door.
(Dan) I read that there were alot of technicians on the 110th floor for CBS, ABC, WPIX and channel 13. Did any of these people have the keys to the roof?
(Michael) OK, it's a bit morbid and not my favorite topic but...
The truth is the engineers shared access but one of the few direct doors out to the master antenna was in Steve's control room. In the first explosion (the garage) and in a bad ice storm, he went out on the roof, in the first case to help police and in the second to keep NY's communication going. Steve was a main man.
(Dan) I read the roof was opened normally by in interlock system on the 42nd floor. But that was destroyed when the planes hit the World Trade Center.
(Michael) Lots of systems were taken out. There were 3 separate elevator banks, each with security and electronics checkpoints to get up to the top, and that's one reason people on the top floors were doomed.
But as to keys... Yes, Steve had them. That wasn't an issue. The fires heating the door was the problem, not being locked in by the interlock system.
(Dan) Thats why i'm curious if Steve had keys that could open the roof door. Or, was the only way to open the roof of the world trade center by this interlock system.
(Michael) Sorry to say, but that's not how it went. At least for Steve, he could simply walk out the door at his will, though he let the building know when he had planned activities on the work -- a security and window washing crew would be up there and knew him, I observed. They all knew each other. Steve was particularly good with antennas and was a senior engineer with a good doorway to the roof. They were very safety conscious. So....
Want the truth? According to his great friend and the next engineer down the hall (Vic Arnone), Steve called on the phone asking what to do about oxygen, as the room was becoming warm and thick with fumes AND the door was too hot to open. He called master control at their corporate center and was told to use the oxygen they were given in the wake of the first terrorist again. His friend was frantic and was told that helicopters were trying to get to the roof but Steve told him it was too hot, and then he said nothing.
(Dan) I read alot of stories how people called there families how they got to the roof door of the North Tower.
(Michael) The top floor was just little transmission rooms, mostly automated, and lots of rooms with repeaters and electronics. There weren't that many workers, and most people wouldn't have made it to the top as the only way was via a small manual elevator which was necessary for the top few floors. And it was out of commission.
(Dan) They all said the roof was locked. This is why i'm so curious, why didn't any of the technicians open the roof door?
(Michael) Steve was basically alone, before the 9AM shift began. Nobody really knew what was going on for a few minutes and most people's first reaction was to leave the building by going down, not up, but Steve was trained to go out in a big disaster. And he tried, but couldn't, then went to a small air supply, then wasn't heard from again.
(Dan) People made it to the roof door. I read stories of Cantor Fitzgerald people calling there relatives from the roof door.
(Michael) Very few people would have/could have made it there. And it wouldn't have helped.
(Dan) Are you saying that the keys couldn't open the roof door, because of the heat.
(Michael) Keys weren't the issue. Heat was.
(Dan) I read stories like this regarding some of the office rooms. That people couldn't get out of the office rooms. The heat welded the doors.
(Michael) Bingo.
(Dan) Are you saying this is what happened with the roof door.
(Michael) Yes, for sure.
(Dan) Do you know if Steve tried to open the roof door?
(Michael) Yes, for sure, as if his life depended on it at that point, which it did.
(Dan) I spoke to one of the helicopter pilots who flew around the North Tower on Sep 11th. I called the NY aviation unit in Brooklyn. I spoke to Timothy Hayes. He was one of the pilots in the helicopter. He told me, they would have tried to resue people on the North Tower roof if people got on the roof.
(Michael) True enough. I heard this too, that they tried but were eventually driven back and there was no sign of anyone making it to the roof.
(Dan) Could the roof door be opened from the ouside?
(Michael) The door would be locked on the outside and needed to be opened when he was out. That's my recollection. And the door opened outward.
(Dan) See thats why i'm curious if Steve ever tried to open the roof door.
(Michael) Of course he tried! He died trying.
(Michael) Here's the final bit I can offer you. I just spoke to someone who worked on the 110th floor, and sent an email to someone else (though I don't think he'll respond) and to a detective who was working at the security desk on 9/11. If I hear anything additional I'll let you know, but I don't think I will.
Here's what I can tell you, and it is specific to the NORTH tower, and was told the situation was likely much different on the South one, given the tourist platform on the roof and the absence of the master antenna.
Several engineering departments shared the hallway near the exit to the roof on the 110th Floor. In fact there was only ONE exit.
Here's a photo of the door
www.audioreview.com/galphoto_60920crx.aspx
That's a Motorola tech in the photo, another friend of mine. He survived.)
I have determined that in fact it was possible to reach the 110th stairwell using the emergency staircase. BUT... the only way to the roof was as follows:
All the engineers on the 110th floor had keys to an outer vestibule, and a key WAS necessary to get into this little hallway corridor leading to the final door. Nobody from Cantor would have been able to get into this doorway without a key. And if someone else had opened it and left it opened, there would still be the final door, normally in locked position.
Once inside this space, which Steve couldn't even get into because his door into the hallway was too hot/welded, it was necessary to get past the magnetic locking system which you mentioned. Since the first terrorist attack the procedure was updated and it was necessary to flash a security clearance badge into a camera for that final door to be clicked open by someone at the security station on the 80-somethingth floor.
There is a possibility of someone having made it to the final corridor and opening the outer door with a key, if the door and lock weren't too hot, and the person were able to breathe. But "nobody knows for sure" whether the interlock system, camera, etc., security worker, etc., were all working in the final moments.
It was the case that the magnetic lock system was designed, the engineers and police were told, so that in the event of an emergency it would automatically default to unlocked position.
However, I just learned that Steve's ham radio equipment, next to the WPIX equipment on the 110th floor, was still functioning (and people were talking on a "repeater", despite some strange noises and crackling thought to be from heat even though the place was normally very air conditioned) and this radio equipment was transmitting until one second before the building collapsed. Therefore, it's 100% certain that there was still electricity up to the time the building went down, and it's NOT known if the emergency unlocking took place, as neither Steve nor anyone else seems to have made it that far.
And that's all that any living person knows.
(Dan) The last thing, you mentioned that you had to go through 2 doors to get the roof. Suppose you opened the first door with keys. You then mentioned that you had to flash a security clearance badge into a camera for that final door to be clicked open by someone at the security station on the 80th floor.
(Michael) I have no personal knowledge of whether the security was being controlled on the 80th floor, an emergency control point, or any other place. I do know the situation was changing quickly, and people in command as well as in offices getting different information as to evacuation efforts.
If at some point the top elevator stopped working, as someone reported, it's possible the operator operator was overcome by fumes and/or heat coming up the shaft. Steve Jacobson's last words (according to his close friend he spoke with on 9/11) were that it was "too hot" to get out the door. Does this mean the door itself was hot or the hallway outside on fire, don't know....
His good friend *thinks* Steve was referring to the door out into the common hall area, but it was too hot at or near the door. This suggests that his room was becoming filled with smoke, consistent with his call to the main transmission office asking for help. He was told to use the oxygen given to him after the last attack. And soon after he was gone.
(Dan) Now this security badge thing i'm positive wasn't working, after the plane hit the North Tower.
(Michael) There was lots of time between when the plane hit and the building came down. During this time was when helicopters hovered and evacuation plans as well as rescue plans were being developed as the situation worsened. It may be that the emergency system control or the top floor video camera was not working, or stopped working at some point, true...
(Dan) Here's my question. Suppose Steve got in this room and this security clearance badge wasn't working because the system was destroyed after the plane hit the North Tower.
(Michael) That's a hypothetical situation yes, but the reality is that Steve would NOT have been in that situation of being stuck at the camera while saying on his mobile phone that the door is too hot to open. He may have made it out his office door and succombed to fumes, or he didn't even succeed in opening the door, or he ran out of air and died before getting very far. He was making phone calls trying to get help because he couldn't get out.
(Michael) If there are more details, they are known only by someone deeply in grief, who doesn't want to think about the details now. But several people who were friends with Steve all agree: Some details we'll never know because the people who lived them are gone, or they were so close to this trauma they've totally become in shock and the memory can be really scary or fuzzy.
(Dan) How then could you have gotten that door open? You said, in the event of an emergency it would automatically default to unlocked position. But suppose this didn't happen, because the machine was destroyed by the heat. How could you have opened this last door.
(Michael) Yes, the plan was to default to open in event of an emergency. And this means most likely the top-floor security and elevator personnel would have made sure things were functional before they left post. Unless they died first.
(Dan) Do you see what i'm saying. Is it possible that Steve got into this room and the security clearance badge wasn't working and lets say the system wasn't at default because the system was totally destroyed by the heat.
(Michael) Anything is possible.
(Dan) Was there any other way to get out.
(Michael) No. Not on the North Tower. Apparently the South Tower had more exit possibilities but theoretically had been made more secure since the first WTC attack.
(Dan) Also, did the Motorolla person ever tell you if you could open the roof door from the outside.
(Michael) The answer is, the door could NOT be opened manually from the outside. There was a camera mounted in a wind-resistant shed and you needed to be buzzed in, just as you needed to be buzzed out. IF it was working, the camera line was intact, the operator was alive, there wasn't a terrorist attack in progress with a burning plane a few floors down, etc.
If if if....
Nothing more living people can say, I think.
(Dan) Michael I just found out all the answers to my questions. I just read this article. Could Helicopters Have Saved People From the Top of the Trade Center? Here's the link to the article
http://interactive.wsj.com/fr/emailthis/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1003784754436648720.djm
I'm stunned what I read. Like you told me, to open the final door to get to the roof, the technicians on the 110th floor were issued electronic-key cards. They had to be buzzed through by security guards who monitored the doors from a 22nd-floor office. It was not the 80th floor but the 22nd floor.
When the plane hit the North Tower, it basically destroyed this interlock system on the 22nd floor. What this means, there was no way to open that last door. I cant believe how stupid the Port Authority was. They only had one way to open the roof door. Did it ever occur to them, what if there was a massive fire that destroyed this interlock system on the 22nd floor. They should had it, where Keys could open the roof door incase of an emergency. Once the interlock system on the 22nd floor was destroyed, the only way to open the roof door was by a drill. Since the roof door was metal door. You would need a very heavy drill that could drill open a metal door. Ofcourse there are drills like that, but no one working in the World Trade Center will have one with them.
I also found out in this article. http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20020906004/tscript.htm The South Tower was the same way. There was an interlock system on the 22nd floor of the South Tower. They would have to buzz you in to get on the roof. When the plane hit the South Tower, it destroyed the interlock system on the 22nd floor. I am in total shock, that the people who ran the World Trade Center didn't have a backup way to open the roof door incase of an emergency. They should have had keys or a hatchet open it up, incase the interlock system on the 22nd floor was destroyed or broke down.
The bottom line is that authorities in major cities should have some better ways by now to conduct high-rise rescues.
Having been up there over a dozen times in my life, I can say that there was not enough clearance for a helicopters blades.
. Oh dear, there you go busting a conspiracy balloon when a newbie was having so much fun trying to float it.
Tbat's true. And with cell phones the passangers on the 4th hijacked plane on 9/ll realized that this wasn't an ordinary hijacking and fought back.
And I certainly won't argue with you about Pakistan, except to say that there are countless millions of Hindu Indians next door to the majority-Islamic Pakistanies and the two groups don't like each other. The Muslim Pakis are busy in Kashmir and Jammu trying to claim the property from India by their usual terrorist attacks.
Those people have fought each other for a long, long time. India is always only a little bit away from giving the mother of all Hindu karmas to Pakistan.
Thank you, that wasn't a newbie. That was one of the old hard core retreads. :)
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