Cops accidentally kill 300 citizens annually

Columbia Chronicle ^ | 12.8.2003 | unknown

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Cops accidentally kill 300 citizens annually

Editorial: Nonlethal weapons a better approach

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2003-12-08/opinions2.html

Here lie the casualties of an epidemic that has been increasingly gripping American cities since the early part of 1990:

·Steven Curry, 21, shot and killed by an off-duty Chicago police officer, Nov. 25, 2003.

·Michael L. Jacobs, 37, shot and killed by a Shreveport, La. police officer, claiming self-defense, Dec. 2, 2003.

·Courtney Mathis, 12, shot and killed by a Cincinnati police officer, Sept. 1, 2001.

·Timothy Thomas, 19, shot and killed by off-duty Cincinnati police officers, April 7, 2001.

·Ahmed Diallo, 22, shot 41 times and killed by New York City police officers, Feb. 4, 1999.

·Robert Russ Sr., 22, was one of two unarmed civilians shot and killed by Chicago police in a single week, June 1999.

·Gonzalo Martinez, 26, shot and killed by Downey, Calif. police, Feb. 15, 2002.

·Nathanial Jones, 41, died after being beaten by Cincinnati police, Nov. 30, 2003.

These cases are only a small percentage of the more than 300 unarmed citizens killed each year by police officers who claim they had no other option than to use a service firearm or other means of lethal force.

“Other options,” however, to bring people under submission have been made available to various police departments across the country. In the western United States, there is a sweeping trend by police districts to adopt nonlethal weapons.

According to the San Diego Tribune, more than 1,200 policing agencies have begun using PepperBall guns.

The PepperBall Gun is a semi-automatic, high pressured-air launcher that fires balls containing the strongest, hottest pharmaceutical-grade irritant available.

In October, San Carlos, Calif., police began carrying taser guns, opposite their firearms. The taser sends 50,000 volts of electric shock into the nervous system, completely incapacitating a subject. Officials from the Phoenix Police Department began using taser guns in 2002.

Since its implementation, there has been a 50 percent decrease in the number of shootings by police officers. And in San Diego, where officer-involved shootings are among the highest in the country, police districts are retraining their officers in sensitivity and deployment of nonlethal weaponry.

Nationally, only 1,000 of the 18,000 police agencies currently supply nonlethal devices to officers based on a variety of poor reasons. Major cities of the Midwest and Atlantic regions argue they are sticking to their guns, no pun intended, due to tight city budgets, the lack of training and most importantly, doubt.

Its troubling when the use of nonlethal weapons becomes an oxymoron for police in cities such as: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Portland, Providence, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., where police-involved deaths continue to rise. It seems those sworn to protect and serve are ignoring a proven remedy.

According to a 2002 Associated Press report, a majority of U.S. law enforcement agencies do carry Mace or pepper spray. But officers believe the chemical aerosols don’t pack enough punch to subdue suspected criminals. So, are police trained to believe that the only alternative is to shoot or pound the culprit to death?

Part of the problem lies in the lack of training in defensive tactics and nonlethal artillery. Officers often reach for their holsters because training goes out the door during challenging confrontations. Police must be properly educated in understanding how to best handle all situations. But perhaps the ultimate cure is in the eradication of police officers who sidestep proper training practices. In any other profession, the incompetent are let go. Unfortunately, in law enforcement, someone has to die before incompetence is realized.

[jocon307]

"Every mayor, town councilmember, state legislator, member of congress, ALL CORRUPT?"

Only in New Jersey.

Get your beer here!

[zeugma]

Sorry to correct you, but "subject" "slave" "no longer free men"

I stand corrected.

[eno_]

So name one Drug Warrior freepers have ever seen in the flesh? Or are there double-secret Drug Warrior only freeps?

And what, exactly, are Drug Warriors against? Government spending? Nooooooo, might disemploy a JBT. The New Deal? Nooooooo, that's what kicked off the Constitution-distortion that enables the Drug War. RKBA? Nooooooo Drug Warriors are also Gun Grabbers. Nope, not likely to see that crew at freeps.

[Cultural Jihad]

Spoken in the imperative tense. Personally I wouldn't care who saw whom where, while busy-body libertarians always want to stick their noses into other people's business.

[tpaine]

Porterville:
we all have been screwed by cops at some point.

_____________________________________



Speak for yourself. Are you an ex-con? And if so, what were you unjustly accused and convicted of? Is the root cause of your ideological outlook on the world really traumatic toilet training episodes?

45 posted on 12/08/2003 6:39:09 PM PST by Cultural Jihad

---

Above is a real "busy body" in action.

[breakem]

why, dontyano that only excons have ever been screwed by cops?

[Porterville]

I would add to the argument but I feel that anything I would add would just take away....

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Sometime around 1960, several cops -- including a cousin of mine -- quit the police force in the small midwestern town I lived in because the police chief there instituted a new policy for the use of deadly force: No police officer shall fire at a perp unless the perp first shoots at the police or at some other innocent person. Period, no exceptions. Good policy. I thought so then. I think so now.
How times have changed. Can you imagine any police department having such a policy today? I can't, but if you happen to know of a town that still has such a rule, let me know because that's where I want to live.

There is no doubt: More than a few cops today are trigger happy killers who are sanctioned to kill people on barely more than a whim. That cell phone in your hand doesn't look like a gun, right? Wrong! Any baby-faced Nelson in blue can drop you in your tracks any time he wants and get away with it scott free. All he has to say is that it "looked like" you had a gun in your hand and that you were pointing it at him. It happens all the time and it has to stop.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is the point of the discussion thread. This 50 years of kool-aide drinking socialism is killing us.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

This discussion is gettin' nutty. Statistically speakin.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

See post 178 immediately after yours.

I would say this guy has experienced first hand the issue of this post.

[Mad Dawg]

You know , if the NYPD just wanted Diabblo dead , would it have taken 41 bullets?

The death of Diallo (sp?) was clearly a bad thing. But let's not go further than we have to. I can't remember the details, but let's assume three LEOs each of whom was carrying a 9mm with hi-cap magazines. That's 45 cartridges -- maybe 48 if they each had one in the pipe.

Diallo reaches for his wallet, the LEO's freak out. They do not stop for a discussion about which of them is going to shoot, so all three shoot. At least one of them did not empty his gun. With three LEOs and the battle flag up, 41 rounds is not remarkable.

Now think about the LEO's job. (Better, volunteer for your local police or deputy reserve division and find out what it's like.) It's 99% boredom and 1% terror (and that's probably too low on the boredom and too high on the terror.) And, it seems to me it would take an awful lot of training (which costs municipalities more money than they are prepared to spend) to get a reliable notion of how LEO's would act in the middle of an adrenaline dump.

Adrenaline makes you stupid. Dead LEO's have been found with pockets full of shell casings. Why? Because in training they got the habit of emptying their revolvers into their hands and pocketing the casings so as to make range cleanup easier. So when the compost hit the air conditioner they reacted habitually.

Clearly there are bad laws and bad LEO's. As clearly, many if not most LEO's could stand more time on the range learning their way not only around their weapon but around their adrenaline.

Unfortunately, there are a few other things LEOs need to know. At a wild guess, about 4 to 6 hours of every 40 hour week could usefully be spent on training and practice. On my own time, I TRY to get 3 hours a week at the range. I can't always make that happen. I don't see taxpayers being willing to pay to make sure it happens for all their LEO's.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. The choice taken seems to be for inadequately trained LEOs. Most of my buddies would love to have more training.

[RS]

"Sure dosen't seem like this one counts as an accident...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Are you saying this is murder by assaination?"

Nope - suicide by cop -

There are a lot of foolish people out there who have never fired a gun that say that a cop should try to hit someone in the leg or arm - They watch 'way too much TV.

When a cop fires he goes for center mass, and dosen't stop until he is sure that the threat is over -

[from occupied ga]

The contempt of many here on this thread for police officers is apparent.

Ever try asking yourself why?

[fourdeuce82d]

Shoot to stop is synonymous with shoot to kill

Disagree. Center mass is actually BELOW the heart for one thing,and the whole "mens rea" thing comes into play. If you load Ricin into the cavity of a hyrda shock, sure- you intend to kill. If you shoot center mass, you are not necessarily "intending" to kill...and giving the relative weakness of handgun rounds, and modern medicine, ~80% of people so shot will live.

[fourdeuce82d]

This policy by police departments to always have a bullet in the pipe if you are in law enforcement is WRONG. Hmm...on the one hand we have chuck taylor, massaad ayoob, john farnam, clint smith, Col. cooper, Ken Hackathorn, and Lous Auerbach.(sp?) on the other we have; CHICAGOARMER.

The above trainers, without exception, recomend Condition One Think I'll go with their judgement, particularly when I read:

In the old days a revolver was carried with the hammer on a blank chamber.

you are aware, of course that the reason behind that was to avoid accidental discharges if the hammer was struck, aren't you? And you certainly must be aware that the overwhelming majority of modern duty DA revolvers incorporate a transfer bar to preclude such a thing happening, right?

And finally, if your concern is that the officer will inadvertently cock and fire his weapon, the hammer would NOT come down on the empty chamber it had been resting on, but rather on the LOADED chamber that had rotated into line when the trigger/hammer was operated? In other words carrying on an empty chamber has ZERO bearing on the likelihood or prevention of an ND?

You may or may not be right about the current caliber of LEOs- I don't have enough knowledge to make a comment. But given what appears to me to be an abysmal lack of understanding re: firearms...I do not take your analysis very seriously.

[TEXASPROUD]

It all comes down to training. I was a deputy sheriff in New Mexico back in the late seventies. While it is true that back in the 1880's most individuals carrying a single action revolver had the hammer on an empty chamber(thereby making their 6 shooter a five shooter),in the late 20th Century, most cops carrying a double-action 6 shot revolver had 6 rounds in it. I was taught keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot. Sometimes in plainclothes I carried a Colt .45 Auto or a Browning P35 9mm. They were carried in condition one (round in the chamber,cocked and locked). That was the way they were designed to be carried.
You DO NOT give the trigger a light pull on a duty gun. The Glock which is a standard gun throughout the U.S. comes with a standard 5 lb pull. NYPD got them to increase the tension on theirs to 8 lbs, known as the New York trigger. Then Glock also offered the option of a New York plus trigger of 12 lbs.
Probably 75%+ of negligent discharges are due to individuals with no background in firearms. 100% of them are due to negligence. My daughter was a GM/G (Gunner's Mate/Guns) in the Navy. When I went to her graduation at Great Lakes, the First Class that was her instructor could not say enough good things about her. He recognised she had been around weapons a good deal before her first weapons class at Great Lakes. Her marksmanship was noted by the seal team assigned to her ship. She has never had a ND because she is paranoid about safety.
Guns fire for a reason, someone pulled the trigger.
I see the problem as a training problem. Better more intense training and a chnge in the mindset of the majority of cops would make a difference. By the way you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. That Lone Ranger bullsh#t of shooting to wound looked great at the movies and on TV, but as myself, Squantos, and a few other ex Peace Officers can tell you, it's bogus.
I recognise one other thing, the unloaded auto pistol chamber you are describing is advocated by the Israelis. Believe me them chambers is loaded when they are expecting trouble, Massad aint stupid. Good post by the way it should generate a lot of comments.

[Kevin Curry]

Ever try asking yourself why?

Sure. Scofflaws, dopers, and malcontents tend to despise law enforcement.

[from occupied ga]

Sure. Scofflaws, dopers, and malcontents tend to despise law enforcement.

Then by your "logic" the founding fathers were Scofflaws, dopers, and malcontents.

Just to give you a thrill here is a picture of some scofflaws, dopers, and malcontents

Getting the treatment you think they deserve

[Papabear47]

I like it when people can back up their opinions with a reliable source.Keep up the good work.

[petercooper]

299

[dasboot]

Sometime around 1960, several cops -- including a cousin of mine -- quit the police force in the small midwestern town I lived in because the police chief there instituted a new policy for the use of deadly force: No police officer shall fire at a perp unless the perp first shoots at the police or at some other innocent person. Period, no exceptions. Good policy. I thought so then. I think so now.

Tinfoil territory.