Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

PQ-17 - an Arctic convoy disaster.
BBC ^ | 01/03/14 | Jeremy Clarkson

Posted on 01/05/2014 9:28:31 AM PST by Vanders9

PQ 17 was the code name for an Allied World War II convoy in the Arctic Ocean. In July 1942, the Arctic convoys suffered a significant defeat when Convoy PQ 17 lost 24 of its 35 merchant ships during a series of heavy enemy daylight attacks which lasted a week.

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: arctic; navy; ww2
The BBC does still make some excellent documentaries. This is the latest one by Jeremy Clarkson (he of Top Gear and punching Piers Morgan fame) and this time it doesn't shirk from showing some not very comfortable shortcomings in Britain's war record. Interesting, and sad.
1 posted on 01/05/2014 9:28:31 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

PQ-17 was just one of several disastrous Arctic Convoys. The loss of life and equipment was huge through 1944, but it kept the Soviet northern front armies in the game.


2 posted on 01/05/2014 9:34:14 AM PST by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

It is true there were other convoys that took heavy losses, but PQ-17 was by far the worse. Conversely, an awful lot of Arctic convoys were incredibly successful - I dont think a single ship was lost in the first ten that ran. And there were some where the casualties went the other way - convoy JW51B for example, which resulted in the battle of the Barents sea, where an attack by German surface units was most handily fought off by the escorts.


3 posted on 01/05/2014 9:49:37 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9
Alistair MacLean is best known for his WW II thrillers, many of which were made into blockbuster movies ( "Where Eagles Dare," "Guns of Navarone.") His first novel, "HMS Ulysses" is loosely based on PQ-17. MacLean served in the RN in the war, and his ship was an escort on two Artic convoys.

IMO, it's one of his finest works. It's honest..before he turned to the espionage techno-thriller genre. A good read.

Note: I recall reading somewhere that if you went into the Artic waters, your survival time was less than 2 minutes.

4 posted on 01/05/2014 10:07:04 AM PST by ken5050 (This space available cheap...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

Bookmark for later viewing..


5 posted on 01/05/2014 10:07:30 AM PST by ken5050 (This space available cheap...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
PQ-17 was just one of several disastrous Arctic Convoys. The loss of life and equipment was huge through 1944, but it kept the Soviet northern front armies in the game.

Which ended up amounting to using Devil's disciples to combat Hell's angels. Much to consider, and i am not expert, but perhaps enough aid in food and arms etc. should have been sent in mercy to enable the Soviets to keep from being defeated, or delay it and keep Germany tied up trying to, but not so much that they became such an offensive force that they beat the Allies to Berlin, gained to German documents and scientist, etc. and quickly began the 50 year cold war, which we still deal with.

Patton's idea was to rearm the Germans to fight the Soviets under US command, even if hardly feasible i suppose. But no "Uncle Joe."

6 posted on 01/05/2014 10:13:29 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
"...i am not expert, but perhaps enough aid in food and arms etc. should have been sent in mercy to enable the Soviets to keep from being defeated, or delay it and keep Germany tied up trying to, but not so much that they became such an offensive force that they beat the Allies to Berlin, gained to German documents and scientist, etc..."

A tough balance to strike. Every German gun pointed at the Soviets was one less pointed at an American, Brit or Canadian.

7 posted on 01/05/2014 10:19:43 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

**His first novel, “HMS Ulysses” is loosely based on PQ-17.**

I read that 51 years ago! Excellent book on the terrors of arctic warfare.

The ship is sunk, men are in the water crying for rescue! You get a Ping that an enemy sub is beneath you, you drop a depth charge hoping to nail the enemy sub, but you know the concussion will also kill the men in the water.


8 posted on 01/05/2014 10:30:15 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
...but you know the concussion will also kill the men in the water.

Hypothermia would probably have got them before anything could have been done, even without the threat of being torpedoed while stopping in an attempt to pick up survivors.

Besides, by that time, the then-secret hedgehog was in use. There's a reason that no war time movies used footage of it in action.

9 posted on 01/05/2014 10:47:03 AM PST by Calvin Locke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
Patton's idea was to rearm the Germans to fight the Soviets under US command

Should have.

10 posted on 01/05/2014 10:58:31 AM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Admiral King wouldn’t listen to The British Admiralty when it came to escorting convoys properly.He soon caught on!


11 posted on 01/05/2014 12:11:09 PM PST by bandleader
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

Anybody that punches Piers Morgan can’t be all bad.


12 posted on 01/05/2014 12:28:40 PM PST by sport
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9; All

I`ve just finished watching all three War Stories episodes:
1. PQ-17
2. The Greatest Raid
3. The Victoria Cross

I highly recommend the last, if you haven`t seen it; the ending is remarkable


13 posted on 01/05/2014 12:41:17 PM PST by bt_dooftlook (Democrats - the party of Amnesty, Abortion, and Adolescence)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe 6-pack
A tough balance to strike. Every German gun pointed at the Soviets was one less pointed at an American, Brit or Canadian.

That why i said a degree of help was both merciful and advantageous, but enough to gain equality, not an offensive force to Berlin. Short term gain, long term loss, as in Truman's rejection of MacArthur's consul regarding China it seems.

But now we have a country that is being destroyed from within, and if a foreign enemy had inflicted the cost the liberal ethos has in souls, lives and money, we would have declared war on it long away. Stats .

14 posted on 01/05/2014 12:55:15 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Vanders9

Just finished it. Very sobering stuff, and a good documentary.


15 posted on 01/05/2014 3:26:03 PM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

Painless way to die though. The sudden drop of temperature would stop your heart and the cold numbs all sensation.


16 posted on 01/06/2014 12:17:24 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Riley

Glad you enjoyed it.


17 posted on 01/06/2014 12:19:05 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson